Is the Fediverse stalling?
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I can appreciate how twisted and emotionally charged the labels have become. As a queer(-ish, it's complicated) person in the US, it is not uncommon for right wing spaces on reddit to offhandedly describe me and all the people I care about as groomers. Thats not a good faith discussion of whether the way that I want to see problems solved is productive, it's just dehumanizing people because they're minorities.
I don't want to be around that. I think it is extremely important to have conversations with people you don't agree with, and I still have very little emotional capacity to engage with people that far away from me in terms of what's considered an acceptable way to engage with other humans.
I don't wish them death and dismemberment or for them to face violent retribution (and before people take issue with that, that would radicalize people and harm every single cause I care about, making every problem I'm facing worse. Even just purely pragmatically that's a horrible way to solve our problems like 99% of the time), but I don't wish to share space with them, I don't have that in me.
The left does absolutely have an issue with calling anyone we dont like a Nazi, which is a painful problem to confront due to the fact that our government is descending into outright fascism, and it is now infinitely harder to have a conversation about the fact that this is what fascism looks like now that the word has been so diluted as to be almost meaningless. It essentially just conveys "I really really really don't like that person" at this point, which is a big difference from "this person is framing minorities as responsible for all that ails society to gain power while stripping us of our freedoms and amassing personal power and currying favor with billionaires by selling them our institutions at all or our expense"
I'm curious, how did both the left and right get fucked in the recent election? I'm pretty much entirely unfamiliar with Australian politics save for a couple friendly jordies videos
The issue is the worst of both sides are the ones defining each other. I won't deny that I disagree with some of the things being pushed as part of education for young children. But I wouldn't say that that's grooming let alone define an entire group of people by that. Its defiantly not good faith.
I think the beautiful part of the internet is if u don't want to be around a particular person u can block them and they simply disappear. They have a right to speech but nobody has the right to force you to listen.
I don't think engaging with people emotionally is the correct way to engage especially over a text medium. I think the only real productive discussion that can be had without devolving into a screaming and name calling is rational and logical. I find that emotional arguments and weaponised empathy get deployed on mass instead of rational discussion.
I'm not saying that you should be forced to share a space with such people I simply think that others should not be restricted from having such spaces and engaging freely with people in those spaces.
This is what I'm saying people have been called fascist so long they have become the fascists. Its both sides stripping us of our freedoms and making our lives shit. Its a choice between get fucked or get fucked lite. We are all to distracted fighting a bullshit culture war to realise its just a distraction from the real issues. Funny how the whole culture war thing kicked off just after occupy wall street.
In Australia we have preferential voting so we don't have a 2 party system. We have the liberals who are centre right, we have labor who are centre left, we have the greens who are communists and we have the nationals who are fascists. The nationals never get any seats, liberal and labor trade places as the government every couple years and the greens get a couple seats. This time the greens lost almost all their seats same as the liberals.
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Sorry, I’m thinking strictly in terms of Reddit vs. Lemmy/Piefed/adjacent networks because they are essentially Reddit alternatives that function the same. I don’t really know much about Mastodon or other alternative networks, nor can I speak on their health - but the lemmyverse (including new piefed instances) seem to be fine overall.
From Evan, co-author of ActivityPub: The Fediverse should be more like the Facebook Platform (lots of client apps using the same social graph) rather than the Apple App Store (a bunch of one-feature apps that have to bootstrap their own social network each time).
Instead of thinking "Lemmy/Piefed vs Reddit" or "Mastodon vs Bluesky vs Twitter" or "PeerTube vs Youtube", think that the Fediverse can be so much more than a poor man's version of the proprietary networks. This mentality is still rooted in the silos created by Big Tech.
Communities can become nomadic, and that’s fine.
First, I think that community migration implementation from PieFed has very bad implications. It is literally rewriting history.
Second, if we want to make the Fediverse something really accessible, it needs to be a lot more reliable. Yeah, when we are a few thousand people it's easy to coordinate the migration of a few dozen communities. But if we are talking about millions or billions of people, we can not afford to have constant failures. People have expectations set by the corporate networks, so the whole system needs to be as reliable as them.
First, I think that community migration implementation from PieFed has very bad implications. It is literally rewriting history.
I don't really care about that. If the idea of communities being effectively modular becomes an accepted standard, then no-one will blink an eye at their posts on a prior community being redirected after the fact to another instance.
Second, if we want to make the Fediverse something really accessible, it needs to be a lot more reliable. Yeah, when we are a few thousand people it's easy to coordinate the migration of a few dozen communities. But if we are talking about millions or billions of people, we can not afford to have constant failures.
We don't have constant failures though? What are you referring to here? Lemm.ee crashed out due to owner/admins burnout. That's the only major one i can think of.
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First, I think that community migration implementation from PieFed has very bad implications. It is literally rewriting history.
I don't really care about that. If the idea of communities being effectively modular becomes an accepted standard, then no-one will blink an eye at their posts on a prior community being redirected after the fact to another instance.
Second, if we want to make the Fediverse something really accessible, it needs to be a lot more reliable. Yeah, when we are a few thousand people it's easy to coordinate the migration of a few dozen communities. But if we are talking about millions or billions of people, we can not afford to have constant failures.
We don't have constant failures though? What are you referring to here? Lemm.ee crashed out due to owner/admins burnout. That's the only major one i can think of.
I don't really care about that.
I do. I care very much about identity and authenticity in the Fediverse. A server that can take posts done in one group and publish as their own is as unreliable as a server who puts fake posts impersonating a popular user.
One of the fundamental issues with the current implementations in the Fediverse is that the server owns the keys and can do anything on behalf of the user.
That's the only major one i can think of.
again, why you are talking about Lemmy only? Mastodon instances from all sizes go down every other week.
but if you want to talk threadverse only: feddit.de. The original kbin, fmhy, one for writers that I forgot the name...
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I don't really care about that.
I do. I care very much about identity and authenticity in the Fediverse. A server that can take posts done in one group and publish as their own is as unreliable as a server who puts fake posts impersonating a popular user.
One of the fundamental issues with the current implementations in the Fediverse is that the server owns the keys and can do anything on behalf of the user.
That's the only major one i can think of.
again, why you are talking about Lemmy only? Mastodon instances from all sizes go down every other week.
but if you want to talk threadverse only: feddit.de. The original kbin, fmhy, one for writers that I forgot the name...
I do. I care very much about identity and authenticity in the Fediverse. A server that can take posts done in one group and publish as their own is as unreliable as a server who puts fake posts impersonating a popular user.
Then we're at an impasse. But communities becoming completely modular and movable solves the problems you speak of. That's the answer.
again, why you are talking about Lemmy only? Mastodon instances from all sizes go down every other week.
Because I don't really care or know that much about Mastodon.
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Fediverse does everything I require out of social media. Functionality of threadiverse is mostly there and getting better (Piefed will probably replace Lemmy as the go-to eventually), apps are better. Mastodon / microblogging was always good enough for communicating with real people, it’s when you’re an influencer you run into limitations but who cares about that. Maybe there aren’t that many people that are into this and that’s okay because we’re not a corporation that needs to report quarterly growth forever.
(Piefed will probably replace Lemmy as the go-to eventually)
I think rather we'll see more software popping up and diversifying the ecosystem. Then you can pick whichever you prefer. Which is the whole point of the fediverse. I'm currently working on my own implementation. Might take a long while before any alpha version as I'm super busy but I try to do at least a bit of work on it every day.
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I do. I care very much about identity and authenticity in the Fediverse. A server that can take posts done in one group and publish as their own is as unreliable as a server who puts fake posts impersonating a popular user.
Then we're at an impasse. But communities becoming completely modular and movable solves the problems you speak of. That's the answer.
again, why you are talking about Lemmy only? Mastodon instances from all sizes go down every other week.
Because I don't really care or know that much about Mastodon.
That's the answer.
That's a bad, short-sighted, wrong answer. We can have decentralized identifiers. We have more than a couple FEPs that deal with portable objects correctly, and in the last FediForum there was a lot proposed strategies to allow migrations from both dead and live servers. None of them requires a server to unilaterally steal the content from another actor and pass it as their own.
People were criticizing me like hell because of the mirror bots on alien.top, but at least the bots were stealing from Reddit and they were meant to get people to migrate. This is implementation from PieFed may have good intentions, but the will lead to bad outcomes.
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I'm genuinely interested in people thoughts about the Fediverse because here in the UK it has massively stalled in 2025, like a lot of things. I am seeing way less posts from UK people and way less interaction and general use in fact. Most seem to have stopped social media use to be fair, and I know a lot of that is to do with my age (old fart here, 56 laps round sun and counting) but the numbers game look poor from my point of view. Do we think the Fediverse has a future now after useage appears to be going downwards? Is it a UK thing? (well I know the UK is weird but hey)
That's an interesting question. I don't think the advantages of the fediverse are part of any zeitgeist so are not attracting new and diverse users other than maybe through places like Flipboard and maybe Ghost. The future of social media is certainly going to remain fragmented and the fediverse fragments itself by default anyway. I do think that how people use social media is changing; people are tired of overuse to some extent.
Does the fediverse have a future? I think it'll remain its own niche as corporate offerings come and go. Increased Interest may come from an unexpected growth in a specialism that is federated.
I think my idealism for what the fediverse could achieve is now muted as I probably no longer have faith in open networks as the cultures are way too different so I probably now see the fediverse less through the email analogy and more through the linux analogy. If fedi plods on refining itself in its own slow way (volunteers and no money make for slow progress) then who know the next time a corp offering destroys itself and people search for a less awful and exploitative environment then it might just win out in the long term though I'm not entirely convinced about that. Does that mean i'm off to corporate networks. Not really. I'd rather just stop altogether than fall down that rabbit hole again. -
Haven't seen anything like that myself, which instance admin are you referring to?
emacs.ch ended like that and fosstodon also had it's fair share
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That's the answer.
That's a bad, short-sighted, wrong answer. We can have decentralized identifiers. We have more than a couple FEPs that deal with portable objects correctly, and in the last FediForum there was a lot proposed strategies to allow migrations from both dead and live servers. None of them requires a server to unilaterally steal the content from another actor and pass it as their own.
People were criticizing me like hell because of the mirror bots on alien.top, but at least the bots were stealing from Reddit and they were meant to get people to migrate. This is implementation from PieFed may have good intentions, but the will lead to bad outcomes.
I don't think an admin of a server would think that if a community sets up there and operates there that they "own" it, to be honest.
Also, currently, it would only duplicate the content and change how it appears from a Piefed instance.
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I run bespoke hosting and services and people are spending less and less each month. Been doing it for 30 years in various ways and forms and 2025 is by far the hardest year to get anyone to part with money. Everybody thinks they should setup something ad laden it to death, make a fortune and retire at 30. Here in the UK you should visit a loc(ish) new website and see the content disappear behind a torrent of ads, clickbait articles, AI videos etc.
That tells us something about where our culture has gone and is going. I feel what you are seeing reflects this. There's a herd mentality driving a lot of norms.
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I don't think an admin of a server would think that if a community sets up there and operates there that they "own" it, to be honest.
Also, currently, it would only duplicate the content and change how it appears from a Piefed instance.
If you are the admin and developer of the server, you can do pretty much anything with it.
For example, now that I am working on an AP server, I can take all your posts on [email protected] and mirror them on [email protected]. I could also avoid sending notifications to you, so you'd be aware of this only if you visited the site directly. How would you feel about that?
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If you are the admin and developer of the server, you can do pretty much anything with it.
For example, now that I am working on an AP server, I can take all your posts on [email protected] and mirror them on [email protected]. I could also avoid sending notifications to you, so you'd be aware of this only if you visited the site directly. How would you feel about that?
Well currently an admin could easily intervene and stop a migration by removing the community mods, to be fair.
For example, now that I am working on an AP server, I can take all your posts on [email protected] and mirror them on [email protected]. I could also avoid sending notifications to you, so you'd be aware of this only if you visited the site directly. How would you feel about that?
I mean you could just copy my posts anyway manually, if you were so inclined. There wouldn't be much I could do about it no matter how you did it.
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Well currently an admin could easily intervene and stop a migration by removing the community mods, to be fair.
For example, now that I am working on an AP server, I can take all your posts on [email protected] and mirror them on [email protected]. I could also avoid sending notifications to you, so you'd be aware of this only if you visited the site directly. How would you feel about that?
I mean you could just copy my posts anyway manually, if you were so inclined. There wouldn't be much I could do about it no matter how you did it.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I mean you could just copy my posts anyway manually,
No, no. By mirroring, I mean it is possible to make it look like you posted to the community.
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I mean you could just copy my posts anyway manually,
No, no. By mirroring, I mean it is possible to make it look like you posted to the community.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I'd object and probably complain and it'd get your instance blacklisted. I'd support all community migrations being made publicly known - so you can see the timestamps and paper trail of a community.
But this isn't quite the way that community migration would work here - it's not quite the same thing. You would be attempting to give the impression I am actively contributing to a community I'm not - whereas I'm talking about moving a community from instance A to B. The community for all intents and purpose is the same.
If I posted actively to a community I do not own or moderate and they moved server and thus took my posts there with them, I wouldn't really object to that.
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emacs.ch ended like that and fosstodon also had it's fair share
Ah, not lemmy, you're talking about the rest of the fediverse. Gotcha
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I'd object and probably complain and it'd get your instance blacklisted. I'd support all community migrations being made publicly known - so you can see the timestamps and paper trail of a community.
But this isn't quite the way that community migration would work here - it's not quite the same thing. You would be attempting to give the impression I am actively contributing to a community I'm not - whereas I'm talking about moving a community from instance A to B. The community for all intents and purpose is the same.
If I posted actively to a community I do not own or moderate and they moved server and thus took my posts there with them, I wouldn't really object to that.
You see, this is why it's important to understand that how ActivityPub works and why we can not think only in terms of "Reddit, but federated".
In terms of ActivityPub, a community that mirrors posts is exactly the same as someone that "retweets" a message. You may not even have realized, but it's quite possible that your posts/comments have been replicated on mastodon. Now that they are (finally) adding support for quote-posts, this will be even more common.
What I just described to you is this "communities following communities" idea. It's not about "giving the impression" of anything, it would be openly to aggregate all content in one single place and to avoid fragmentation.
Now, like I said in the linked discussion, I think that there is a legitimate complaint about taking content from one place and just moving it around. But at least the approach I am proposing is not fabricating anything. It's Piefed's implementation that is falsifying information. In my view, what PieFed is doing is objectively worse than a "reposting actor". Just like the "private voting" feature, it is beneficial for its own users but it's bad for the overall Fediverse.
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thanks.... learning as we go here. Run other instances for people but I have got to say for many of my clients they are seeing a massive drop in the fediverse in general after modest growth. The general consensus is that creators want to earn money rather than have freedom
For creators, it makes sense to favor the commercial platforms.
For Reddit users, the Fediverse is a good enough alternative.
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Block the meta communities
Or use Piefed where you can create different feeds (a la multireddit): https://join.piefed.social/
I don't have time to curate
They do not want to fix the problem, they want it to fix itself.
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By 2035 we could be under water, or all living in a radioactive hellscape. And the argument of paying people to use a free service breaks logic.
sorry mate that was a joke, not a literal statement
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sorry mate that was a joke, not a literal statement
All good! The internet makes it even harder to tell because I can't "read" anyone over the ether.
