Government condemns Glastonbury chants aired live on BBC
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It's about as narrowly targeted a chant as you can get.
It's not about jews. It's not about israelis. It's specifically the army of israel. If that's not narrowly targeted enough, what's acceptable? "Down with the members of the IDF who intentionally target civilians but not those members of the IDF who are willing to risk a court martial to make sure that they only attack valid military targets?" Doesn't make a very good chant.
Good point, the IDF, being an occupying army, under international law is absolutely a legitimate target for violent armed Palestinian resistance
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Is that case israel and the united states are also terrorists right?
I guess that depends on how you define terrorism. Some definitions require the actors to be individuals or subnational organizations - so the scale of Israel's actions would make it something else. But other than that: yes.
Why do you ask? I haven't seen anyone defending Israel's actions (and the US support of it) in this thread, so I'm not sure how that adds to the discussion.
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Comparing Israel to Nazi-Germany is antisemitic and comparing the war crimes in Gaza to the Holocaust is at least Holocaust minimization.
Also criticizing people for supporting islamistic terrorists like Hamas or Hezbollah doesn't imply support for Israel.
Israel is a fascist apartheid state that is currently carrying out ethnic cleansing. I think it's rather fitting.
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You can choose to not join or to leave the IDF (it might cost you some jail time, but if that’s the price for keeping one’s soul, so be it). You can’t choose to not be an Arab.
I see this delusional and out of touch argument being made all over the internet, and it's so damn annoying. These takes are always from chronically online larpers who never leave the comfort of their house, they always say shit like:
"why don't people of Iran just overthrow the theocracy?"
"why don't the people of North Korea just topple the Kim dynasty?"
"why don't Russian conscripts just refuse to fight in Ukraine?"
"why don't Israelis just refuse to be in the IDF?"
"why don't Americans just have a revolution?"
Could it be because that reality is not that simple? It's easy to sit there in your dark room all day dreaming about being a heroic revolutionary, but in reality? You wouldn't do shit because you understand that the consequences are a lot harsher in reality than in your imagination. This over simplistic view of the world just boils away the complexity and nuance of humanity. Nobody is willing to risk their freedom, stability, future, or life to appear moral or have a "clean soul". When shit gets real and you're in the same position as all these people, you'll end up doing the same as them. If reality was that easy then we wouldn't have tyrannical regimes or wars or exploitation, but we do. Trying to blame a 20 year conscript for being forced to serve in the military by extremist leaders is stupid and unhelpful. They're not making the situation better, but it's also not their fault they're in that position in the first place.
There are plenty of people refusing to join the idf, its not some mystical heroicism. Regardless of how people joined it, a military occupying land and committing a genocide is a legitimate target under international law.
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Lemmy world is thoroughly subverted by state actors.
I had an account there and left because my registration e-mail address for that account was leaked to Israel and I started getting e-mails in my native language from a Tel-Aviv base entity inviting me to attend one of their "Get to know Israel" online courses.
Not even a Moderator has access to the database with the user's e-mails, only a server Administrator.
The use of "moderation" in trying to shape perceptions in any large Lemmy forums hosted in Lemmy.world is to be expected.
Interesting. Maybe you could share more info regarding this?
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I guess that depends on how you define terrorism. Some definitions require the actors to be individuals or subnational organizations - so the scale of Israel's actions would make it something else. But other than that: yes.
Why do you ask? I haven't seen anyone defending Israel's actions (and the US support of it) in this thread, so I'm not sure how that adds to the discussion.
Any entity who target civilians for a political aim is considering terrorism .
Defending the idf is defending Israel. It's the occupying force that implement Israel policies in Gaza and the west bank and are committing a genocide
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Comparing Israel to Nazi-Germany is antisemitic and comparing the war crimes in Gaza to the Holocaust is at least Holocaust minimization.
Also criticizing people for supporting islamistic terrorists like Hamas or Hezbollah doesn't imply support for Israel.
It's not anti-Semitic to simply state reality.
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Israel is a fascist apartheid state that is currently carrying out ethnic cleansing. I think it's rather fitting.
Israel is a democracy with a far-right government, not fascism. Even though the situation in the Westbank might be similar to Apartheid. Nazi-Germany executed an industrial murder of over 6 million Jews, this is not the same!
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Israel is a democracy with a far-right government, not fascism. Even though the situation in the Westbank might be similar to Apartheid. Nazi-Germany executed an industrial murder of over 6 million Jews, this is not the same!
Sorry no. You can't be an apartheid state and call yourself a democracy. That's not how words work.
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You can choose to not join or to leave the IDF (it might cost you some jail time, but if that’s the price for keeping one’s soul, so be it). You can’t choose to not be an Arab.
I see this delusional and out of touch argument being made all over the internet, and it's so damn annoying. These takes are always from chronically online larpers who never leave the comfort of their house, they always say shit like:
"why don't people of Iran just overthrow the theocracy?"
"why don't the people of North Korea just topple the Kim dynasty?"
"why don't Russian conscripts just refuse to fight in Ukraine?"
"why don't Israelis just refuse to be in the IDF?"
"why don't Americans just have a revolution?"
Could it be because that reality is not that simple? It's easy to sit there in your dark room all day dreaming about being a heroic revolutionary, but in reality? You wouldn't do shit because you understand that the consequences are a lot harsher in reality than in your imagination. This over simplistic view of the world just boils away the complexity and nuance of humanity. Nobody is willing to risk their freedom, stability, future, or life to appear moral or have a "clean soul". When shit gets real and you're in the same position as all these people, you'll end up doing the same as them. If reality was that easy then we wouldn't have tyrannical regimes or wars or exploitation, but we do. Trying to blame a 20 year conscript for being forced to serve in the military by extremist leaders is stupid and unhelpful. They're not making the situation better, but it's also not their fault they're in that position in the first place.
Love that the "just following orders" defense is making a comeback. Just as valid today as during the Nuremberg trials.
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Israel is a democracy with a far-right government, not fascism. Even though the situation in the Westbank might be similar to Apartheid. Nazi-Germany executed an industrial murder of over 6 million Jews, this is not the same!
Sure, there is democracy in Israel, but it is more similar to the one that existed among whites in apartheid South Africa than it is to the democracy that currently exists in the United Kingdom or France.
UNICEF has reported more than 50,000 children have been killed or injured in Gaza. At what number do you become comfortable with the comparison? 1 million? 2 million?
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Ah, good old New Labour, siding with the modern day Nazis committing their very own Holocaust in Gaza.
The UK is almost as fucked up as the US.
(Though, judging by the march of 600k people against the Genocide, most Brits are not, and it's the power and money elites that, as usual, can't stop themselves from loving the most violent Fascism and Fascists same as when a young princess Elizabeth was being taught by her uncle and then King how to do a Nazi salute - the whole ubermenschen vs untermenshen view of the World seems to have massive appeal amongst British elites).
Far more. Starmer is a ponce and a WEF puppet.
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80k dead and 130k injured, starvation, displacement, murdered by settlers.
But a chant is "deeply offensive". Take your fucking offense, fold it until it's all sharp corners and shove it up your ass, BBC.
and being a nazi isn't.
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Love that the "just following orders" defense is making a comeback. Just as valid today as during the Nuremberg trials.
Its not though. Do you think a few years in prison will make you a better person? Or having to find a job as a felon or whatever the Israeli equivalent is? you are asking people to do shit no one will ever ask of you and you will never be put in a similar situation. Fuck the IDF, but if you want this to end you have to see the whole picture.
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Comparing Israel to Nazi-Germany is antisemitic and comparing the war crimes in Gaza to the Holocaust is at least Holocaust minimization.
Also criticizing people for supporting islamistic terrorists like Hamas or Hezbollah doesn't imply support for Israel.
Only a rabid racist would - through claiming that anything critical said about that nation is anti-semitism - imply that a nation station state whose actions approach those of the Nazis in their depravity represents all the Jewish People.
It's hard to be more anti-semite than conflation a nation mass murdering children with the Jewish People as a whole.
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Do you have proof of this? Did you have a unique email used for Lemmy world? Signed email headers please
Sure, if you give me a minute I'm just gonna dox myself to satisfy you, random Internet stranger.
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Its not though. Do you think a few years in prison will make you a better person? Or having to find a job as a felon or whatever the Israeli equivalent is? you are asking people to do shit no one will ever ask of you and you will never be put in a similar situation. Fuck the IDF, but if you want this to end you have to see the whole picture.
So this is pretty much exactly the line of reasoning that the nazis used to defend their participation in the holocaust. It wasn't convincing then, and no, it isn't convincing for the current genocide either.
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Yet you don't use this excuse for hamas. It suck that they had to do a terrorist act for people to talk again about 77 years of oppresion by israel. The idf leaving gaza to control it from outside and continuing occupying the west bank, demolishing house, torturing paleatinians , raping them and killing them make it hard for hamas to resist following international law.
Would you have use the same argument for nazis to follow hitler?
Don't you also see how many idf soldiers are filming themselves mocking plaestinians and having fun?
I would to a degree. I was alive when the 'war on terror' started, the recruiting starts at childhood and you can join at 17 that is no where near enough to make an entirely informed choice like that. And in the US if you are poor and want to go to college or get healthcare you really do not have many other options.
Hamas and the taliban are absolutly evil organizations. But if your country is being occupied and they are the only ones you seem to be fighting back then what do you do?
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Exactly. That's what many people don't realize. Hamas atrocities are themselves a product of Israeli Jewish-supremacist occupation apartheid. There are multiple instances in history where occupation and subjugation has brutalized a population to the point of themselves becoming butchers when given the chance. From Boudicca, to King Phillip's War, to the late excesses of the Haitian Revolution, to Nat Turner's rebellion, to the early days of the Greek Revolution, and even Terror periods of the French and Russian Revolutions. These excesses and atrocities are not to be glorified, but they must be understood as really sad outcomes of the pre-existing brutal regime. It's always chickens coming home to roost, and in fact it's usually a wonder that the atrocities are not worse.
Hamas committed horrible atrocities on October 7th. Was anyone really surprised they did so however? These were an outcome of decades of brutal occupation.
Hell, I'll even say something very controversial: Israeli atrocities themselves are the outcome of the extraordinary brutalization of Jews in the decades preceding the founding of Israel. Hitler is laughing in hell. This is his intergenerational evil at work, 80 years after he bit his luger.
100% truth.
It's the same intergenerational trauma causing this, and that this is causing.Isreal had a unique opportunity to "turn the other cheek" and be a good neighbour, even while Palestine was fighting them, and they instead choose the evil path.
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So this is pretty much exactly the line of reasoning that the nazis used to defend their participation in the holocaust. It wasn't convincing then, and no, it isn't convincing for the current genocide either.
Then we should be thinking hard about how these countries recruit. I am not saying defend the war criminals, but if you want to fight them you have to see how they work.
Look at all these countries that fought the nazis long ago and how they became more and more fascist afterward. you would think they would be smarter then this, but it is clear all the wrong lessons have been learned.
