Installing Linux Doesn't Need to Change. The Experience Does.

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"shit just works"
I'm sorry but you're fucking high if you think shit just works on linux. Every problem is a rabbit hole of 3 new problems with 3 more new problems.

I am by no means saying windows is any good, or any better necessarily. But this "Linux works great and is easy to use" is a load of shit and I'm sick of hearing it.

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Boot: Yes, the windows boot drive (an old 128GB SATA SSD), but I hit F11 on boot adn selected USB to boot to that to do the install just like with Pop. But again the install worked fine at least on the older LTS version of Ubuntu. And it booted on USB correctly with the later version too, just as soon as it went graphical it b0rked.

So do you get a grub menu at all? Is there the Plymouth (green, grey and white text only) loading screen? What does booting look like? I need more detail here because I've had driver issues and this is sounding more like a boot issue. Would it be possible to remove other hard drives during a test installation then add them back afterwards? Totally understand work and life comes first and all but if you get the opportunity, I've got a hunch.

I'm thinking we need a matrix chat or something to send images and details on lol

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It doesn't though. It's just different and takes time to learn. Like if a PlayStation only user switched to Xbox or a Mac user switching to windows. It's different. In my experience Mac isn't "user friendly" because it does shit different. I took some time to learn it. Now it is

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I have to hit F11 to choose to boot the linux partition, at which point I get a grub menu. I don't recall anything that says Plymouth on it, and I normally don't get a text screen at all unless I boot into recovery mode, at which point I get the usual linux text-spam on boot.

Booting looks like:
POST, F11
Select Linux to boot from (it's listed as the 128GB SSD because that's where the MBR/etc is, but linux is on a 1TB NVMe SSD)
Get grub menu.
Select Ubuntu.
Wait a lot on a black screen.
Get a brief Ubuntu logo that lasts a couple seconds.
Black screen again for a few more seconds.
No signal.

Remove other drives: no, that would be a significant pain in the ass. But also Pop worked installed on the same NVMe SSD with the same other drives in the system, so I'm pretty sure it's not a drive/BIOS-related boot issue.

I'd be happy to chat, though I have no idea what matrix even is. Feel free to DM (does lemmy even do DMs? I'm still kinda new) if you want to try to get something like that set up tho. I'm on discord if that helps?

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If I report bug it's testing

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Of course people can have different opinions on this, but the point for me is that I am of the firm belief that immutable is a must for people that just want their OS to work indefinitely without having to take care of that aspect. And once you got that covered, I feel that you need some sort of "App Store" app out of the box where you can get whatever people may need. Ubuntu has Snaps, which to my understanding is just a different take on what Flatpaks are accomplishing.

Currently the Top 5 of the past 6 months on Distrowatch are all mutable, 2 of them are Arch-based, one comes with Xfce. I have been a Mint user myself and again, of course this is a matter of opinion, but for me the ship of using Debian derivatives has sailed, which might also subconsciously be the reason why no Ubuntu-based immutable distro has made it into my experiments. (No disrespect to Canonical and what they have done for the community since 2004, my first ever hands-on with Linux was on their 04.10 release.)

Either way I just can't see myself recommending any of those Top 5 to people who just want to use a PC reliably. And if I'm going to be the one they turn to with their problems I don't want those to potentially be about system-level breakages. When filtering by the "Immutable" tag on Distrowatch it seems that they just bunch those spins into their main distros like Ubuntu, Fedora and SUSE. I guess you can say VanillaOS is niche in comparison, but Fedora Silverblue is basically an immutable version of a well established distribution with Red Hat backing no less. And once it is set up like my pilot is now it works just fine. I guess the plan now is to keep that installation running and see how it behaves across updates/upgrades and such.

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In my experience a stable distribution is a “set and forget”, unless you start tinkering with it.

I have countless of users where I’ve installed something like Linux Mint and it’s been literally running for years without any issues. These users have no idea how to use a computer, except for logging in and opening the browser.

Obviously the more complex a setup, the more shit can go wrong.

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Honestly kid. I'm done with this. You know the answer to that. I'm done with this. You're all just too exhausting.

And again that is a Linux issue. Because no one wants to be thought of as insufferable as it appears Linux contributes are.

If one doesn't want valid critique, one should take their software private and leave everyone alone.

Otherwise anyone can make all the critiques they want. Don't like it? Don't do things in public. Make the software privately and alone

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Don't sit there being obtuse. One of the benefits of foss is that actual users help test the software and bring feedback to make it better

You just want to be thought of as special

Developers of software are a dime a dozen and becoming an outdated profession. Keep the smugness out of this otherwise.
Good day

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Yes I would disagree regarding immutable. Such a distribution cannot be secure for any lenght of time. Security updates are required. As soon as it customize in any way it is not immutable including adding flatpacks. So I do not see the attraction.

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By the way, in my view, Ubuntu using Snaps rather then native packages is a negative.

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Thanks for admitting that you don't actually care about the software. This was never about the software. This was only about your desire to control the actions of other people. Your previous comment already showed that when you chose to highlight my lack of interest in your opinion and not anything that actually matters.

You might want to consider spending less time on social media.

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And now you're lying.
Man. You really are going to tell me that's what I said?

You're being silly .. that's what I'm Saying. You can have an opinion all you want, you can stand by it, and you can defend it, but none of that makes you any less incorrect or insufferable.
.good day.

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But we know why Snaps and Flatpaks started existing. I also think they are architecturally ugly.

And I think you have a point in terms of patches potentially coming too slowly onto an immutable system. But that problem isn't an inherent one, it's just a problem if distribution updates are slow because community support is lacking. At which point you're just trying to compare Open Source to Proprietary solutions where support is explicitly paid for. I'll trust a year old Linux kernel over the latest and greatest Windows release any day.

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Well, lucky for them their fields aren't under constant attack by droves of idiots constantly being catered to. There is no watering down of those fields in the name of "user friendliness".

Also, they don't expect people to understand their field, but people don't interact and touch legal stuff or doctor stuff on a daily basis like people do with computers. If they did, then they would no doubt feel the same way about idiots who can't grasp the basics and refuse to learn the slightly more advanced shit.

It's 2025. There's no reason for anybody - but especially the older group - to not know what the start button is, or keyboard shortcuts for copy and paste, for example.

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What does 'watering down' even mean? Why is 'user friendliness' bad? Do you want computers that are harder to use for some reason? If that was the case why don't you also give up your favorite OS or interface or language and go back to carting around stacks of punch-cards or flipping physical switches to set memory registers? Or are you just trying to make yourself feel superior as a technically-minded person?

Also, I dunno if you know this, but people interact with health and legal shit all the time, that's why there are people who only do that job. Reading some email and punching some numbers into an excel sheet are about the equivalent of signing a lease or getting a flu shot. It's not their job to know how things work behind the scenes, just like it's not your job to know how to make vaccines or write legally binding contracts.

And finally, you're forgetting two important facts.

Older people tend to have been in their jobs longer, and at higher levels where their computer expertise matters less and less
Companies, especially in certain industries, don't update their hardware/software as often as IT would like them to

So that old guy you think ought to be able to know what a start button is might have never seen one because the only computers they use at work are old SPARCstations from the early 2000s, or might've worked in a bank for the last 50 years that is still using AS/400s from the late 80s or whatever; those machines can't even run windows. You tell me, what are the keyboard shortcuts for copy and paste on a DEC Alpha? Where's the power button on an SGI Onyx? I worked IT in a hospital in the late 90s that was still using computers from the early 70s and shit, it happens way more often than you think.

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Man, where to even start on this...

"Watering down" is the MS approach to design - take all the power user features, and make them less useful and less efficient to use (or just get rid of them altogether). It's a slow burn to "Take that to the nearest certified Microsoft Store so they can repair it for you".

The entire design is focused around making things HARDER to use. Less reliance on a terminal, dynamic menus whose contents are clusterfucked into little panels instead of proper menus. Hell, look at the Printers dialogue in Windows 7 and prior, then compare that to the trash they've thrown in Win 10 and 11. Everything is designed to look flashy, and be as impossibly inefficient to use. But it looks less intimidating, so stupid users love it!

Reading some email and punching some numbers into an excel sheet are about the equivalent of signing a lease or getting a flu shot.

Not sure where you're from, but when I get a flu shot, I sit in a chair and somebody who knows how to administer the shot gives it to me. I also don't get a flu shot for several hours a day several days a week. Same with leases, I may sign one every few years at most, and if it's for something serious then I would get a lawyer involved. That said, I am at least competent enough to sit in the chair and get the shot without asking "what's a chair? How do I sit? Where is my arm?" Likewise, I can read a lease and not have to ask "What is a lease? What is a signature? How do I sign this page?" I can't say the same about people in 2025 who say "What's the start button?" or have no idea that decades-old shortcuts like ctrl+c and ctrl+v are things.

Also, if you consider the amount of marketing and exposure to computers that people have had by now, yes, I would expect just about everybody to know what the fuck a Start button is. Shit, if you hold your mouse over it, I'm almost certain it even pops a tooltip that says "Start". Some of these people have worked at this same company for decades, and have no doubt touched generations of Windows software.

As for how to copy/paste on those older computers - I guess it depends on how you're accessing them as to whether or not you even can copy/paste. But at the same time, I wouldn't be nearly as frustrated if somebody wasn't quite sure how to navigate through something that isn't as commonplace as a Windows computer - you might as well say you're "not very competent with pencils and paper".

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It has not been my experience that MS removes or weakens tools like that. What they do is hide them, like what they did in the transition from the control panel to the modern settings interface in 10/11. It's easier for people who don't know what they're doing to navigate (and harder for them to stumble into settings that could really mess things up), but it's just slower to navigate and harder to find the shit you want when you're not doing bog-standard end-user stuff. But also the control panel is still there and still works exactly how it used to, so you can just use it instead. If there's a 'watering down' there it's that the search function prefers to return results for for the settings menu rather than the control panel so you have to navigate to it by hand, but you can just pin that shit to your start menu like everything else and keep using it like it's still 2005.

The entire design is focused around making things HARDER to use. Less reliance on a terminal, dynamic menus whose contents are clusterfucked into little panels instead of proper menus.

Only for people who are doing complex technical stuff and accessing features that aren't commonly needed by the end-user. For everyone else not having 400 options that they don't understand and will never use cluttering everything up makes it easier to use, not harder. Most end-users never want to see a terminal, and those clustered toolbars make it easier - when coming at it fresh without years or decades of expectations - not harder to find what what you're looking for. Especially if you're visually impaired like I am. This strikes me as just 'the way I learned is faster' without the awareness that it's because you took the time to learn it and don't want to have to learn something new. And I get it. I spent hours and hours learning all of the menu hotkey combinations for Lotus 1-2-3 in the late 80s, and I was fast as shit at plucking out those obscure features from 12 menus deep with a few keystrokes, so I was very salty when Excel came along and displaced it with its graphical menus and mouse pointer that was so much slower than the hotkeys I had learned. But also Excel was vastly more popular than Lotus 1-2-3 ever was because it was a lot easier for accountants to use, and Excel has (or had, I haven't used it in a while) hotkeys for most of its menu items anyway (alt+key to pull down a menu, then each entry had a letter underlined so you could quickly pick that option, much like using /, (w)orksheet, (c)olumn, (a)dd or whatever from Lotus 1-2-3.)

That's not 'watering down', that's improving: making things better for the vast majority of people, while requiring folks like us - whose entire job is to learn and understand computer shit - to bear the burden of having to relearn a few things. I guarantee you there were programmers out there complaining about the widespread adoption of early high-level languages because 'by god the best way to code is to manually flip the bits in core memory with a magnet' or whatever, but it's no different than when new laws get passed or new diagnostic or treatment standards get approved. Technological progress and reinvention is just the nature of living in an industrial society. If you don't want to keep up with it, pick another field like I did.

when I get a flu shot, I sit in a chair and somebody who knows how to administer the shot gives it to me. ... Same with leases, I may sign one every few years at most, and if it’s for something serious then I would get a lawyer involved.

Exactly my point: you and an accountant both have a very shallow, straightforward experience with a complex technical subject because others have gone to considerable lengths to take care of the immense volume of technical details and obscure them from your view. I'm going to guess that you understand as much about how to safely store and administer vaccines or which of 12 related statutes applies to your particular case as he does about the SMTP protocol or Ethernet, so why do you expect him to not get a professional involved when he runs into 'something serious' just like you do? And keep in mind that what seems trivial to you or I can be quite serious and intractable to him.

I am at least competent enough to sit in the chair and get the shot without asking “what’s a chair? How do I sit? Where is my arm?” Likewise, I can read a lease and not have to ask “What is a lease? What is a signature? How do I sign this page?” I can’t say the same about people in 2025 who say “What’s the start button?” or have no idea that decades-old shortcuts like ctrl+c and ctrl+v are things.

This is a straw man. You are exaggerating the stupidity of others to create a false example against which you are arguing, and while a few of those people certainly exist (I had a guy tell me his computer wouldn't turn on and then when I asked him to try his response was to loudly say 'Computer, on! -- see? Nothing happens'), most people can muddle through simple stuff like navigating menus even if they don't know what they're called.

I did tech support for a couple of years in the late 90s, I have walked people who have literally never touched a computer before through replacing their motherboard (CPU, RAM, cables, even DIP switches and jumpers.) It's been my experience that there's a kind of mental line that most people draw that separates technical stuff into two categories: 'I can probably figure this out', and 'OMG this is way too much I don't even know where to start.' I have talked to many, many people on both sides of that line, and there seems to be no middle ground. People go from 'I think I can swim?' straight to 'holy shit I'm drowning'. When they've assigned computer stuff to the far side of that line they actively reject thinking about it, especially when jargon is involved. If you ask them where their files are stored they might gesture vaguely at the box under their desk, but if you ask them what a hard drive is they will shrug and go 'Iono man, must be some of that wacky technical shit I don't understand'. They have some idea what a hard drive - or a start button - is, they use it every day, but if you put them on the spot while they're in 'I dunno anything' mode they're not even going to try to make the connection and ask 'wait, is that the menu that all my programs are in?', they'll just go 'Dunno man, that must be some of that technical shit that's beyond me.'

And it works both ways. I have had certified network engineers tell me 'Of course it's plugged in, what kind of an idiot do you think I am?' when it turned out not to be plugged in. There's the stuff you know and the stuff you feel confident stretching for; everything else just doesn't even get considered.

As for how to copy/paste on those older computers - I guess it depends on how you’re accessing them as to whether or not you even can copy/paste. But at the same time, I wouldn’t be nearly as frustrated if somebody wasn’t quite sure how to navigate through something that isn’t as commonplace as a Windows computer - you might as well say you’re “not very competent with pencils and paper”.

The point is that you don't know because you don't have to, you've never had to use them (and what's 'commonplace' for you isn't necessarily common at all for others.) The same is true for those people who have been working in banks for decades and haven't seen anything more modern than an IBM PCjr. Your frustration that people don't understand stuff that's common to you is equivalent to their frustration that you don't know how to write programs in RPG2 or Fortran. They probably don't think you're stupid for not knowing why certain kinds of RAM can cause 'make world' on BSD systems to fail halfway through, so why do you think they are for not knowing stuff that they may not have been exposed to very much?

I think your expectations might be rather skewed. For example, do you know how common it is to just not own a PC in the days of ubiquitous consoles and tablets and smartphones? I have 11 adult nieces and nephews, two of them own PCs, and only then because their mother wanted someone to play WoW with her when they were kids and they stuck with PC gaming. But every one of them has a phone, at least an xbox or playstation, most of them own a Switch or Steam deck or similar, etc. Meanwhile the last console I owned still had wood paneling on the front (Atari 2600.) Peoples' experiences with technology are different, some are intrigued by it and drawn to learn more, some just see it as a tool that sits in a drawer until they need to turn some metaphorical bolts. It's absurd to assume that everyone has the same experience and interest and understanding with a subject that you do.

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The biggest hole in your argument is that it isn't 1993 anymore, and the internet has a whole wealth of information on how to do shit, not to mention how hard it would be to have never touched a computer if you're any more than 5 years old.

People could take the 30 seconds to get the answer, but instead they'd prefer to just be stupid and allow big tech to slowly repeal rights to repair.

I've done corporate IT. I've talked to people who somehow use a computer every day but still haven't grasped basic 30+ year old concepts.

The reliance on IT to do the most basic shit is great for me from an employment standpoint, but we are equitr clearly being herded slowly toward the "Take that to your certifies Microsoft repair center for service' path. It'll only be a matter of time before Computers are as pathetic as the pocket computers we call smart phones.

Google and Apple have not just convinced people that they don't need full ownership of their phones, but that having that level of access is actually somehow a bad thing.

We're already seeing laptops with batteries sealed in, and not just Surface Pro tablet style ones, either.

We shouldn't be coddling and encouraging ignorance of everyday things. If you can do a jigsaw puzzle, you're overqualified to build a computer - you may need help picking the right parts, but assembly should be straight forward. If you work a job that requires computer usage, you should know at least the basics of the OS. If you worked in a shop where your job was to cut a pipe to length using a saw, would you really have that job for long if you had no idea how to use a saw, and refused to learn the basics of using the saw? A computer is a tool no less than a saw is.

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And the biggest hole in yours is that you can't imagine that people have better shit to do than learn your job alongside their own just to make it a little easier on you. Call me when you're spending hours every day studying up on medicine and law so that you can also find the answer to your simple medical/legal questions in 30 seconds online just like doctors and lawyers can.

What you have is a magical thing called 'job security' that others would kill for. You are needed to figure out complex technical computer shit because other people have other shit they want to be doing with their time. If they actually did as you suggested you wouldn't have a job anymore. But instead of viewing that as a positive - instead of feeling needed and valued for something that you contribute to society - you choose to view it as a negative: any inconvenience exists solely to make your job harder, and how dare people not devote even more of their life to making yours a little easier? I know, I felt exactly the same way when I worked IT, and it's a big part of why I left.

Yes, companies are simplifying and refining things, in some cases they do remove functionality, that's just the way technology works. My dad called himself a shade-tree mechanic, but when I was growing up there was nothing on a car he couldn't fix. Nowadays he takes it to the shop not because he's prevented from fixing it but because cars have gotten vastly more complicated in the ensuing ~40 years and he - despite being a very capable and technically-minded person - just couldn't keep up with it anymore because the business of doing his job and raising his family was more important.

If you want to be angry at companies for obfuscating or removing functionality then brother I'm right there with you. Just don't be making assumptions about other peoples' intelligence just because they don't have the time or interest to sink countless hours into this just to make your life a little easier.

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Installing Linux Doesn't Need to Change. The Experience Does.