Wayland has a bright future ahead: The move from Xorg to Wayland had a rough start, but things have improved, and there is an exciting roadmap for the future.
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I thought "Meta" was AltGr and Super is the "windows key".
I never heard of AltGr reffered to as "Meta", except maybe in the sense of "Emacs modifier" which might be bound to it. Super is definitely the key between LCTL and LALT though
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I have a shitload of bug/weird behavior with Wayland, I hope it gets better but for me it is not there yet.
Like what? (Curious)
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I make perfect sense to people who actually read what I said. PipeWire issues aren’t imaginary.
I understood you and had the same issue. I solved it by using an Apple USBC to mini jack audio device instead of onboard. Not ideal. Not sure if it’s still a problem though
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Exactly my point. The issues people consider ”solved” with wayland today will be solved in production in 3-5 years.
People are still running RHEL 7, and Wayland in RHEL 9 isn’t that polished. In 4-5 years when RHEL 10 lands, it might start to be usable. Oh right, then we need another few years for vendors to port garbage software that’s absolutely mission critical and barely works on Xorg, sure as fuck won’t work in xwayland. I’m betting several large RHEL-clients will either remain on RHEL8 far past EOL or just switch to alternative distros.
Basically, Xorg might be dead, but in some (paying commercial) contexts, Wayland won’t be a viable option within the next 5-10 years.
Well, we're currently in the process of porting apps away from Windows Server 2012 and CentOS 7.
What you're describing is just how the industry works, not specific to Wayland. -
No, pulseaudio working fine but pipewire isn't, it's a spare old PC HP COMPAQ 6005 pro SFF with AMD Phenom II X4 B97 ram 8GB ddr3 and its sound card SBx00 AZALIA Intel HDA
Pipewire crackling while pulseaudio working without problemsUnsure if the issue is fixed upstream in the kernel however there are a few topics going in depth about this issue with some reported fixes / workarounds.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/3182
https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/crackling-microphone/22173
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/issues/1569#note_1102615
Good luck with the issue, hopefully one of these links fixes that problem for you
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Fair enough. I wasn't aware you actually had that problem yourself, i thought you just looked it up to prove a point lol. I do think it's a weird decision that niri doesn't just have xwayland built-in. Even river has native xwayland support, which is much more focused on minimalism. I haven't used niri all that much because so far haven't really been able to get used to scrolling. I think i still prefer dynamic tilers with a layout system. I should probably try booting up a game in niri to see if i can replicate it.
honestly i kinda get their reasoning... it's extra jank, extra complexity and a maintenance burden that shouldn't be necessary if apps stopped dragging their feet about proper wayland support. niri instead focuses on the rest of the experience and honestly? they're doing a pretty great job because it's super fuckin comfy to use and customize, at least for me.
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to the unavoidable "it's been 15 years" comments: 15-year-old x11 was a piece of shit. the difference is that we had no alternative so we had to put up with it
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I might switch to wayland when xfce starts to have decent support for it. I'm not a ride or die Xorg fan, I just want to keep using the DE I'm used to.
Yeah AFAIK the only two DEs that fully support Wayland are the big two - Gnome and KDE. and a few tiling window managers like Sway and Hyprland.
I look forward to a world where all modern DEs are fully supportive of Wayland like Cinnamon and Budgie and I know people love their xfce.
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I wish Nvidia agreed.
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I'd definitely recommend against using drivers downloaded from a website, on general principles.
custom kernels don't work with the drivers from apt
Check if there's a dkms version - I know that's the way it's set up on Arch, if using a non-standard kernel you install the kernel headers, and dkms lets you build just the module for your kernel.
Thank you for the tip. I will definitely look into this.
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As an average desktop user, I've run into very little pushback on Wayland. Its made huge leaps in a short amount of time.
yeah i think it was a couple of gnomes ago, i never noticed the chageover
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Yeah it's at the point where i'm wondering if i still even need xorg. I'm still keeping it around just in case for now, but i could very easily purge it from my system anytime since i'm using nixos and all my xorg related settings are in a specific file. The main pet peeve i have with wayland is gaming related, and should hopefully improve when wine and proton go native wayland. I have a dual monitor setup and games always choose the wrong monitor by default, which means i can only use the resolution and refreshrate of the secondary monitor. I have a keybind to set the primary xwayland monitor with xrandr, which solves the problem, but it is a bit hacky. I also need to toggle vrr on and off with a keybind because it causes flickering on my monitor. It's a bit annoying but atleast it works, on xorg you can't even use vrr with multi monitor to begin with.
My biggest issue gaming under Wayland is the fact that certain games can't capture the mouse when run full screen with multiple monitors. I've got a number of games that exhibit the issue, but the easiest way to experience it is to try and run CS2 as wayland native (so not under xwayland - As the performance overheads running xwayland are notable running CS2) - Within 10 mins you'll be looking at the ground with the mouse pointer on your secondary monitor.
Furthermore, running gamescope doesn't fix the problem - And yes, I'm running the correct commands under gamescope.
I mean - This is basic functionality that should be an integral part of any modern OS. Under X11 running the same dual matched monitors everything works perfectly with great FPS.
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You know Wayland will be ready when these threads don't get 100 comments
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I'm glad Wayland is maturing and taking over. Even most of the X11 devs hated X11 which tells you something.
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You know Wayland will be ready when these threads don't get 100 comments
I think Wayland just attracts trolls in the same way as systemd does.
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yeah i think it was a couple of gnomes ago, i never noticed the chageover
Same. I booted up NixOS with Gnome around 5 months ago and it took a second for me to realize it was defaulting to Wayland. I was running it on an ancient Asus gaming laptop with nouveau drivers and the experience was overall smooth. Had it multi screened with my TV, too.
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As an average desktop user, I've run into very little pushback on Wayland. Its made huge leaps in a short amount of time.
Yes it's been stable for some time with a couple of caveats - you need a decent graphics driver and not be using apps with edge cases.
Here is a simple example of an edge case and it's not hard to find people blaming Wayland even though with some thought this was a security issue - apps like Zoom, Discord, MS Teams want to do screen sharing which is easy in X11 because it has non existent security - just steal the screen bitmap. That's a problem.
Wayland (the protocol) provides no means for one app to grab the screen, or other apps. This is by design for security. Instead the app must be a good citizen and send a "i want to screen cast" message to the xdg-desktop-portal (a service provider implemented by GNOME, KDE etc.), the desktop asks for user consent and then the app gets a video stream. So it's a lot more secure but it requires the app and the WM do things properly.
Desktops and apps have matured and these issues are thankfully going away. I think the biggest hurdle left is proper graphics drivers, especially the problem of getting NVidia drivers working.
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I finally switched when I moved from Arch to Fedora and it's worked fantastically for me. This is where the Linux desktop is heading now for sure.
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until you start using it and screenrecords dont work, multimonitor setups work once and then fail forever...
systemd,wayland, unity, ubuntuOne and all that stupid shit can right f off.They do work providing the app asks for a screen cast in the proper way (which BTW is not via Wayland but through a message to a DBus service). The service and the desktop then ask permission from the user if necessary. X11 didn't give a damn about protecting the contents of your screen and any app whether it was beneficial or malicious could do it with impunity. So you should see this formal method of getting a screen cast as a major improvement to your security.
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Yes it's been stable for some time with a couple of caveats - you need a decent graphics driver and not be using apps with edge cases.
Here is a simple example of an edge case and it's not hard to find people blaming Wayland even though with some thought this was a security issue - apps like Zoom, Discord, MS Teams want to do screen sharing which is easy in X11 because it has non existent security - just steal the screen bitmap. That's a problem.
Wayland (the protocol) provides no means for one app to grab the screen, or other apps. This is by design for security. Instead the app must be a good citizen and send a "i want to screen cast" message to the xdg-desktop-portal (a service provider implemented by GNOME, KDE etc.), the desktop asks for user consent and then the app gets a video stream. So it's a lot more secure but it requires the app and the WM do things properly.
Desktops and apps have matured and these issues are thankfully going away. I think the biggest hurdle left is proper graphics drivers, especially the problem of getting NVidia drivers working.
Thankfully I haven't run into any problems with Nvidia drivers. My main rig is running a RTX 3080 with proprietary drivers and my side-project NixOS laptop uses a GTX 970m with nouveau drivers no problem.
It gets me curious about the possibility of specific GPU manufacturers having more of a problem than some. There has to be some discrepancy, because I do see that some users have issues right out the gate, with some being seasoned Linux vets. Whereas I'm mediocre at best and its all been plug and play for me.
I do like the idea of added security, as much as the permission popups annoy the hell out of me. The more Linux becomes popular, the more we'll need extra security down the road. I hope we can simply whitelist packages at some point, though. Then things become less of a Wayland security issue and more of a user choice thing. If a user chooses a bad package to whitelist, then that's on them at that point.
I don't know the details, so it more than likely isn't as easy as that, however.
