Scientists prove that fish suffer "intense pain" for at least 10 minutes after catch, calls made for reforms
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Can we solve human suffering first? Not saying this isn't important... just that it's kind of hypocritical to shift the focus away from the "hard" stuff, to something "easier".
Any critique of capitalism that ignores this aspect of exploitation is bullshit.
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torture means that pain/distressed are caused intentionally. like beating someone so they give up information. that's not the case in farming. sometimes, animals are caused pain or distress, but the point of the activity is not to cause it. if a farmer could raise their livestock and never cause them any pain or distress for the same cost, i'm sure they would. the pain is incidental, not intentional. it's not torture. qed.
trolling or just willfully ignorant?
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torture means that pain/distressed are caused intentionally. like beating someone so they give up information. that's not the case in farming. sometimes, animals are caused pain or distress, but the point of the activity is not to cause it. if a farmer could raise their livestock and never cause them any pain or distress for the same cost, i'm sure they would. the pain is incidental, not intentional. it's not torture. qed.
yeah, killing the animals so you can consume their flesh, after all their lives being in a enclosed space designed to maximise the profits, isn't bad or torture for the animals.
the bad things happening to them from that life is just a byproduct of wanting to use their corpses for other things, so it can be considered torture, right?it doesn't matter what is the explicit or direct intent, they are being abused, mistreated and tortured, just for personal and human gain.
you can torture other people physically, emotionally or psychologicaly without it being the direct intent for your actions, but the torture will still be there.
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trolling or just willfully ignorant?
why not both?
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Haha I love this response. Force this person to grow their own food because the farmers have more important people to feed.
You "love" the idea to "force" people to suffer, because they aren't your chosen ones?
Are you sure?
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This isn’t a zero-sum game you can help people and the animals at the same time. You wouldn’t be trying to divert attention from dog abuse so don’t do it with the fish.
Please leave this thread and post articles about human suffering rather than attacking articles that advocate for the better treatment of the animals.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]This isn’t a zero-sum game you can help people and the animals at the same time.
Prove it.
Show me how you get the resources to do both. Animalists are high on saving whales, kitties, puppies, etc. while letting their neighbors die home alone, or worse... when not directly saying "I love animals, I hate people".
Please leave this thread and post articles about human suffering
No, I think I'm right where I should be. I don't doompost either.
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Was that ever up for debate? I mean, what do people believe happens when one takes a creature adapted to breathing through water out of said water?
Apparently it's a common myth that fish don't feel pain. I think it's because they show pain differently than mammals (for example, if a salmon let down an ear-shattering shierk when caught, I think we'd think differently) and people don't want to think about it.
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This is a false dichotomy. There is absolutely no reason to do both.
And honestly, people who advocate for animal welfare tend to also be more outspoken against human suffering.people who advocate for animal welfare tend to also be more outspoken against human suffering
If I got a cent for every time I've heard an animal advocate say "I love animals, I hate people"... I'd have a couple bucks already. This thread seems to count towards that.
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This isn’t a zero-sum game you can help people and the animals at the same time.
Prove it.
Show me how you get the resources to do both. Animalists are high on saving whales, kitties, puppies, etc. while letting their neighbors die home alone, or worse... when not directly saying "I love animals, I hate people".
Please leave this thread and post articles about human suffering
No, I think I'm right where I should be. I don't doompost either.
Let's address the issue of fishing, by having everyone go plant based. Give some transitionary period so that the infrastructure keeps up. Suddenly, we are putting out far less greenhouse emissions and have loads more land and resources available to tackle other issues, because plant based diets use a fraction of the land and resources to support, and generate far lower emissions.
The climate situation stops enshittening at the rate it is, and we can allocate the freed up resources and land to "more important" issues, like (directly back into) climate change, homelessness, and world hunger.
We save fish and cows and chickens and pigs and etc from living tortured lives (yes, there will be a massive drop in livestock population as we stop breeding them to live in factories).
I love animals. I love people. This is a false dichotomy.
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Broccoli screams, you just can’t hear it.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Plants have feelings too
No, they do not. There is no serious study to suggest that they do. Plants do not have a brain or central nervous system. At most, they respond to stimuli.
If you really care that much about the welfare of plants, you should go vegan, since many more plants "die" for animal feeding.
Do you feel bad while mowing your lawn? And would you rather rescue a potted plant than a dog from a burning house? Is docking pig tails the same as branch trimming to you? Question upon question... -
Broccoli screams, you just can’t hear it.
I don't love the disregard for plant life just because they lack the central nervous system of animals, but this isn't an argument in favor of eating animals. If you want to argue it's better for us to die than to live via harm, that's one thing, but if you accept we have the right to live at the expense of other life forms then the goal of many becomes to minimize suffering.
While plants do have sensory experiences which elicit behaviors, they don't experience the world in a personal way; they're like a robot or generative AI. When a dog suffers, it has a concept of self and an understanding of what is happening to it, and it will carry memories of the experience which negatively influence its quality of life.
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yeah, killing the animals so you can consume their flesh, after all their lives being in a enclosed space designed to maximise the profits, isn't bad or torture for the animals.
the bad things happening to them from that life is just a byproduct of wanting to use their corpses for other things, so it can be considered torture, right?it doesn't matter what is the explicit or direct intent, they are being abused, mistreated and tortured, just for personal and human gain.
you can torture other people physically, emotionally or psychologicaly without it being the direct intent for your actions, but the torture will still be there.
torture is intentional. the pain and distress caused by farming is only incidental.
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This post did not contain any content.wrote on last edited by [email protected]
TL;DR, they physiology is pretty similar to someone filling your lungs with a saline solution, but slower because they're cold blooded.
When you consider this, that most plastic comes from fishing, and that modern day slavery is heavily present in it (no police on a boat, and hard to escape) I actually have more respect for meat eaters than pescitarians. Don't eat seafood, folks.
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being farmed isn't torture.
Depends massively on the farm and the practices.
Being a cow on a pasture looks okay most of the time. Factory farms should not exist.
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torture means that pain/distressed are caused intentionally. like beating someone so they give up information. that's not the case in farming. sometimes, animals are caused pain or distress, but the point of the activity is not to cause it. if a farmer could raise their livestock and never cause them any pain or distress for the same cost, i'm sure they would. the pain is incidental, not intentional. it's not torture. qed.
Ah, technically correct, the best kind.
Okay, equivalent in unpleasantness to prolonged torture.
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Was that ever up for debate? I mean, what do people believe happens when one takes a creature adapted to breathing through water out of said water?
People also believe that goldfish have no memory, and insects don't think or even aren't alive. You'll notice the common thread of these exonerating us for our tiny bowls and our swatting.
It's like the modern version of "animals don't have a soul".
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Broccoli screams, you just can’t hear it.
Prove it. They do not have any sound-producing organs, nor any structured nervous system to coordinate a non-hormonal response to anything.
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It’s pretty well known that plants don’t just passively endure damage—they communicate chemically with each other through the air or root systems.
Here are two examples:
Acacia Trees
When attacked, the tree releases ethylene gas into the air. Nearby acacia trees detect this gas and respond by increasing tannin production in their leaves, making them bitter and potentially toxic to herbivores. This chemical warning system helps protect not just one tree, but others nearby as well.
Tomato Plants
When attacked by pests like caterpillars, tomato plants release VOCs (such as methyl jasmonate). Nearby tomato plants “smell” this and preemptively activate their own defenses, such as producing chemicals that deter insects or attract predatory wasps.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Almost all people would agree that's not the same thing as the subjective experience of pain, though. By that measure a smoke detector is actually screaming when it's power is interrupted.
Plants don't have organs for movement or information processing, because those are too energy intensive and wouldn't help much. Their other tissues respond to stimuli, but the data rate is orders of magnitude slower than an animal in the same environment.
I'm not sure why these signals would need to reach any significant complexity, but if they did it would be a truly alien mind that expands with the plant's growth about as fast as it thinks. And it's kind of beside the point. Stealing from [email protected]:
Plants have feelings too
No, they do not. There is no serious study to suggest that they do. Plants do not have a brain or central nervous system. At most, they respond to stimuli.
If you really care that much about the welfare of plants, you should go vegan, since many more plants "die" for animal feeding.
Do you feel bad while mowing your lawn? And would you rather rescue a potted plant than a dog from a burning house? Is docking pig tails the same as branch trimming to you? Question upon question... -
This post did not contain any content.wrote on last edited by [email protected]
i think this topic has about run its course in terms of productiveness, and has mostly devolved into people complaining about being held to (objectively correct) vegan ethics. locking
