Oh to be a gay fish
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According to the definition posted above, the cultural expressions of biological sex are only one dimension of gender, and you're ignoring the other aspects. I'll accept fish don't have culture, though I bet someone more knowledgeable than I could argue that point. However, let's look at social behavior via a vis courtship rituals. Like birds, some fish develop pretty incredible displays for getting it on. If a fish which has changed its biological sex then changes it's behavior during courtship, that would seem, to me, to indicate a different expression of biological sex independent of genetics (i.e. gender). Unless there is a genealogical basis for courtship displays, which I don't believe to be the case.
You can argue along those lines but then you’re ultimately arguing against the sex-gender distinction. If you read the full Wikipedia article on gender posted above essentially none of it applies to fish whose behaviour is entirely biological and environmental. We know this because you can substitute any fish in any role for another of the same species and see entirely predictable results.
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Not trying to answer the question, but the only party that suggests that in the original post is "the haters".
Well the reason I asked is because the "haters" suggest it, but then the entertains it.
And judging from the other answers I've received here, it does not seem to be a settled matter.
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Nature is queer in every way imaginable. Diversity is the point.
Just think of how many species would have been wiped out if it weren’t for adaptation
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Just think of how many species would have been wiped out if it weren’t for adaptation
All of them.
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Does trans fall into the term gay now? Honest question. I understood the former to be about gender and the latter to be about sexual orientation.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Not technically, but a lot of queer people use it as an umbrella term. As the saying goes: we are all f_ggots in the eyes of the state.
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The aquarium staff hoist the trans flag, and explain that "some fish change gender". The people complaining bring up "gay", but don't seem very well informed about human or aquatic cultures.
Do they change gender or sex though? I found that confusing. I know some species can change sex.
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Fish-cest
Fincest, surely.
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Do they change gender or sex though? I found that confusing. I know some species can change sex.
Fish changing sex is the most common, with pronounced physical sex changes. But they also usually simultaneously change gender, starting to behave in the manner associated with their new sex.
And there is some interesting examples of changes that seem to be more gender based. This study discusses behavior changes in wrasses where "male-typical behaviors such as courtship and aggression" start being seen in certain female fish, leading to changes in social status, before any noticeable changes to gonadal organs (the glands that produce many of the sex hermones).
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Should've looped on the big screens that recent clip of the two whales "mating". 🤌
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I don't think salmon change sex to be honest. It seems from the stuff I could find that sex determination for salmon is mostly chromosomal but with divergence at certain temperature during development (or exogenous hormonal influence obviously).
The coolest paper I found while searching was this:
Natural sex change in fish - ScienceDirect - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0070215318301145
Apparently they do, or at the very least some types of salmon:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/salmon-puzzle-why-did-males-turn-female -
I clicked this post expecting to see this image.
You didn't disappoint me.
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How do fish change their gender? Are there really smart fishes having formed social constructs related to their sex?
Many biologists (myself included) don't anthropomorphize animals because it's impossible to objectively quantify things like "culture". So, my opinion is that some fish change sex, and not their gender (because fish don't have genders, which are human social constructs).
Happy to be corrected if I'm off-base. I'm not an ichthyologist.
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If anyone is curious (as I was):
In real life Nemo's dad would have become female after mommy got eaten.
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/fisheye-view-tree-of-life/gender-bending-fish/"of all the animals, fish are sexually the most fluid" - https://www.bbcearth.com/news/fish-are-the-sex-switching-masters-of-the-animal-kingdom
Is it possible to learn this power?
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Fish changing sex is the most common, with pronounced physical sex changes. But they also usually simultaneously change gender, starting to behave in the manner associated with their new sex.
And there is some interesting examples of changes that seem to be more gender based. This study discusses behavior changes in wrasses where "male-typical behaviors such as courtship and aggression" start being seen in certain female fish, leading to changes in social status, before any noticeable changes to gonadal organs (the glands that produce many of the sex hermones).
Ah, nice. Thanks for the info.
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How do fish change their gender? Are there really smart fishes having formed social constructs related to their sex?
I agree that terminology is important - the original author surely meant "some fish change sexes".
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Apparently they do, or at the very least some types of salmon:
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/salmon-puzzle-why-did-males-turn-femaleNo, this is just saying that they have the chromosomes that usually produce male salmon but they have female salmon genitalia. I read that one. Unless I misread they haven't seen these salmon be male and then later female (like the clown fish do).
