Germany Turns to U.S. Playbook: Deportations Target Gaza War Protesters
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The call for deportations comes from exactly one extreme side of political world views. The fact that a socially and financially(!) disastrous populist bullshit "solution" like deportations seeped so far into the German mainstream is at best worrying.
The call for deportations comes from exactly one extreme side of political world views.
While I agree with you that especially the AfD is keen on deportations in a scale as big as possible, wouldn't you agree that a system that allows for - please excuse the technical terms - inflow must also have a mechanism of outflow? I.e. deportations in itself are a 'necessary evil'?
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The call for deportations comes from exactly one extreme side of political world views.
While I agree with you that especially the AfD is keen on deportations in a scale as big as possible, wouldn't you agree that a system that allows for - please excuse the technical terms - inflow must also have a mechanism of outflow? I.e. deportations in itself are a 'necessary evil'?
I do think we'd do well to question whether a deportation system makes sense overall. To which I am not going to be able to produce a definitive answer here. But as a society we should absolutely try to look at the negatives that deportations bring with themselves vs. e.g. prison sentences for actual offenders and better integration for everyone arriving. Instead, our political discourse has moved toward enabling mass deportations and toward making it impossible to fight deportations.
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protests are public, those people are gonna show up no matter how progressive the protest.
Not necessarily, no. Organizers can publicly distance themselves from unwanted people beforehand and during speeches, as well as check people's banners and clothing, and that will generally help quite a bit.
which banners and clothing do you want to be censored? if you mean Free Palestine and from the river to the sea, don't even bother as you'd be outing yourself as a zionist
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IIRC with EU citizens they have to argue threat to public safety. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if this thing stops at some district-level Berlin court, Berlin's courts are way saner than its administration. "Threat to public safety" can be incredibly low-bar or quite high bar, this would be a high bar case. Low bar would be stuff like "you're homeless, go back to your home country and file for welfare there".
Can't really bonk the federation for this it plainly doesn't have the authority to give orders to Berlin's immigration authorities, this is the state of Berlin doing shit, not the federal government.
Well to EU, the federal government is responsible. If they don't have authority to intervene on behalf of EU-citizens rights being violated, it in itself would be treaty violation. Member states have duty to police and administer the rights. EU doesn't care is state federal or not, the singular member state entity is responsible to EU and it is up to member state to domestically organize so that treaties are followed.
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Zionist ethno state
Jewish people are not an ethnicity. They are defined by religion.
Jews are a classic example of an ethnoreligious group, being Jewish is not solely a question of religion. E.g. many Jews in the US identify as Jewish, but do not believe in Judaism.
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who havent been committed of any crimes is very legally dubious.
TBF: as the article states, under German law it is not. Whether that is a good idea can surely be debated, but it is legal.
I seem to remember that most of the actions of the Nazis once they got into power were also legal.
Maybe, just maybe, people should have a standard of right and wrong which does not delegate that definition to "legality", especially people in Germany.
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which banners and clothing do you want to be censored? if you mean Free Palestine and from the river to the sea, don't even bother as you'd be outing yourself as a zionist
Primo job jumping to conclusions. I was naming examples of actions. How organizers implement them is not something I am going to have a say in anyway.
I am saying though that interactions like this are probably unnecessary: https://files.catbox.moe/ssct8w.mp4 (If you don't understand German: The "reporter" is an Afd member who is asking a pro-Palestine protester about the historical Nazis and he responds that he likes the number "6 million".)
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Other people present at the same protest are accused of doing these things. Not these people. Scroll up to the article summary I posted
** None of the four has been convicted of any crimes.**
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Going to need another source than intercept to believe this story. They have a history of sensationalization or leaving important details out.
No they do not. The Intercept has been incredibly reliable over the past two years.
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Berlin’s immigration authorities are moving to deport four young foreign residents on allegations related to participation in protests against Israel’s war on Gaza, an unprecedented move that raises serious concerns over civil liberties in Germany.
The deportation orders, issued under German migration law, were made amid political pressure and over internal objections from the head of the state of Berlin’s immigration agency.
The internal strife arose because three of those targeted for deportation are citizens of European Union member states who normally enjoy freedom of movement between E.U. countries. None of the four has been convicted of any crimes.
“What we’re seeing here is straight out of the far right’s playbook,” said Alexander Gorski, a lawyer representing two of the protesters. “You can see it in the U.S. and Germany, too: Political dissent is silenced by targeting the migration status of protesters.”
If this thread is at all representative of how left-leaning Europeans think, then... uh... y'all are fucked. The proto-fascism here can not result in anything else other than Trump/Orban clones taking power all over Europe. I'm not trying to attack you, but You the People need to do something about this before it's too late.
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Primo job jumping to conclusions. I was naming examples of actions. How organizers implement them is not something I am going to have a say in anyway.
I am saying though that interactions like this are probably unnecessary: https://files.catbox.moe/ssct8w.mp4 (If you don't understand German: The "reporter" is an Afd member who is asking a pro-Palestine protester about the historical Nazis and he responds that he likes the number "6 million".)
I can't research this particular incident if all you give out is a video without sources from local media saying whether he experienced repercussions or not.
I don't get what this is supposed to prove, that anyone can put on a keffiyeh and say Nazi shit?
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who havent been committed of any crimes is very legally dubious.
TBF: as the article states, under German law it is not. Whether that is a good idea can surely be debated, but it is legal.
It's not under EU law. Freedom of movement for EU citizens is a legally binding treaty obligation.
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I do think we'd do well to question whether a deportation system makes sense overall. To which I am not going to be able to produce a definitive answer here. But as a society we should absolutely try to look at the negatives that deportations bring with themselves vs. e.g. prison sentences for actual offenders and better integration for everyone arriving. Instead, our political discourse has moved toward enabling mass deportations and toward making it impossible to fight deportations.
I do think we’d do well to question whether a deportation system makes sense overall.
To regularly question the applied mechanisms in our society is something I'd also agree to. Also, I acknowledge the hardships deportations can impose, hence I think it is a tool that should only be used with consideration and absolutely not in the way e.g. the AfD wants to use it.
I also absolutely agree with you that we are dependent on immigration and also immensely benefit from it. But I also think that in order for something like our immigration system to retain the trust of the people and to function properly, it must have the possibility to be a 'breathing' system instead of a one way-only. That means also having the tool to have people leave again. Trying to abolish the rights to hospitality for a host entirely will only see the people flock to those parties that seek to detonate the migration system as a whole.
And I guess we both agree that this would be the worst outcome of all.
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That's true for all of Europe. But first, we'll need to get our shit together and fend off agitprop from Russia, China, and, in the future, the US.
I've lived all over Europe and once upon a time I naively expected that people in the country of Nazism would nowadays be the most sensitive to racist thinking and acting of all, and hence the least racist of all, but that's not at all my experience.
Germany and Germans justifying the racist practices of their own power elites and the fast slide back to authoritarian practices, with whataboutism and "legality" (as if most of the worst actions of the Nazis weren't things they first made sure to make legal) is, frankly, scary as fuck for any European who is not a far-right Muppet, not least because it shows the moral and ethical distance between mainstream German politics and the AfD is paper thin.
Most of Europe isn't supporting the mass murder of children by a nation because of the ethnicity said nation claims to represent and most of Europe hasn't made it legal to deport people who weren't tried and found guilty of something, and that Germany, of all nations, who did what they did almost a century ago and spent the time since telling us "Never again!" are back to the level of racism that knowingly sends wepons and ammo to a nation mass murdering chidren justifying that support with the ethnicity of the people of that nation, and is passing Fascist legislation to deport people without trial, is really stabding out of the rest of Europe when it comes to Racism and Fascism.
Your peers in Europe on the Racist and Fascist scales are the likes of Hungary, not the Scandinavians or even the French.
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I can't research this particular incident if all you give out is a video without sources from local media saying whether he experienced repercussions or not.
I don't get what this is supposed to prove, that anyone can put on a keffiyeh and say Nazi shit?
It's not local media, it's literally a Nazi live streamer filming people for profit. Nonetheless, it's proving that it's not always hard to tease out actual antisemitism from a subset of the people attending pro-Palestine demonstrations.
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It's not under EU law. Freedom of movement for EU citizens is a legally binding treaty obligation.
The TFEU has a provision in section 45 that allows member states to limit this freedom, e.g. for security reasons. It will be up to a court to rule whether a sufficient reason was present in these cases, but a state can legally strip you of these rights.
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It's not local media, it's literally a Nazi live streamer filming people for profit. Nonetheless, it's proving that it's not always hard to tease out actual antisemitism from a subset of the people attending pro-Palestine demonstrations.
I agree and also, what the fuck does this have to do with anti-genocide protesters getting deported?
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I agree and also, what the fuck does this have to do with anti-genocide protesters getting deported?
That's how the thread evolved. It likely has nothing to do with the four people from the article though.
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I've lived all over Europe and once upon a time I naively expected that people in the country of Nazism would nowadays be the most sensitive to racist thinking and acting of all, and hence the least racist of all, but that's not at all my experience.
Germany and Germans justifying the racist practices of their own power elites and the fast slide back to authoritarian practices, with whataboutism and "legality" (as if most of the worst actions of the Nazis weren't things they first made sure to make legal) is, frankly, scary as fuck for any European who is not a far-right Muppet, not least because it shows the moral and ethical distance between mainstream German politics and the AfD is paper thin.
Most of Europe isn't supporting the mass murder of children by a nation because of the ethnicity said nation claims to represent and most of Europe hasn't made it legal to deport people who weren't tried and found guilty of something, and that Germany, of all nations, who did what they did almost a century ago and spent the time since telling us "Never again!" are back to the level of racism that knowingly sends wepons and ammo to a nation mass murdering chidren justifying that support with the ethnicity of the people of that nation, and is passing Fascist legislation to deport people without trial, is really stabding out of the rest of Europe when it comes to Racism and Fascism.
Your peers in Europe on the Racist and Fascist scales are the likes of Hungary, not the Scandinavians or even the French.
Well the Holocaust really fucked up any hope for the entity that followed Nazi Germany to have a reasonable relationship with an entity that claims to be a Jewish state.
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The TFEU has a provision in section 45 that allows member states to limit this freedom, e.g. for security reasons. It will be up to a court to rule whether a sufficient reason was present in these cases, but a state can legally strip you of these rights.
There's no way calling for an end to a genocide (or even a war) is sufficient reason, and they likely know that. So it is, in fact, illegal.
