Yeah I remember saying this when all online communities seemed to be going to discord and people seemed to mainly laugh at me in response at the time.
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Tell me about Element. This is the first I'm hearing about it.
Element is the name of the official Matrix client, but there are many others.
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It's a secure messenger
What are its pros and cons? What does it offer that telegram or similar don't offer? Is it good for group chat? Is it available on multiple platforms?
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How do we get them to switch to something like Element?
You don't....you go back to forums. They're searchable. Discord and Facebook and well anything self hosted isnt via search engines
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Fair enough, I do mean moreso for self host in a way, like I've seen some game hosting servers, they have a VPS they already paid for and use Pelican or Pterodactyl to host it all, being able to throw matrix into the mix easily would be great in those cases. Seems like this would be a separate situation, which is definitely fine, just not exactly what I meant.
Well if you have a VPS then installing the dockerized Synapse just takes a few minutes.
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I run a Matrix family instance. My elderly parents use it as their main way of communicating with us.
Sure, I set up their accounts - but all that difficult to use UX seems to have passed them by completely since they're very happy with it.
I set up their accounts
Setup is the hardest part. Syncing multiple devices and device migration are also hard. I'll bet you're going to act as tech support every time they get a new phone. That's fine for your family, but it's hardly going to scale.
The performance issues show up when dealing with large groups syncing between instances. You might just not be using it that way, but that's what needs to work seamlessly for a viable substitute for Discord.
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What are its pros and cons? What does it offer that telegram or similar don't offer? Is it good for group chat? Is it available on multiple platforms?
Telegram is not a secure messenger.
Yes to multiple platforms, groups etc.
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Well if you have a VPS then installing the dockerized Synapse just takes a few minutes.
I'll have to take a look, I have synapse running but I can't actually connect to my server at all, need to set up the database and sign-ups and all that shit.
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I set up their accounts
Setup is the hardest part. Syncing multiple devices and device migration are also hard. I'll bet you're going to act as tech support every time they get a new phone. That's fine for your family, but it's hardly going to scale.
The performance issues show up when dealing with large groups syncing between instances. You might just not be using it that way, but that's what needs to work seamlessly for a viable substitute for Discord.
How large is large? A few hundreds? Not seeing any performance issues.
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Most of these communuties using Discord are better served by something that isn't a chatroom. So, so, so confusingly many of them use them as a store of permanent information. Like a website+forum.
Many times the benefit of Discord is the ability to paywall parts of it with Patreon integration. We need more foss and federated options that do this.
Isn't there any solution for that yet?
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I'll have to take a look, I have synapse running but I can't actually connect to my server at all, need to set up the database and sign-ups and all that shit.
Are you using the dockerized version? If so it sets up (a) database etc.
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I quite like Discord, but I really only use it for it's original purpose - a place for groups of friends to hang out, play video games with voice chat, and maybe watch shows/movies together. For these purposes, Discord is great!
I have found very little value in how Discord gets used for anything and everything else - forums for video games, support channels for businesses, 1000+ member communities, etc etc. All of those use cases feel better served through traditional websites and forums... but it's so much easier to set up a Discord server for the average person it has turned into a weird default.
In that regard, fuck Discord.
Yeah anything ephemeral is fine like chats and what not. But this idea of using it as support platform is just dumb. You end up with people asking the same question over and over and it either doesn’t get answered because no one is around to answer it or likely because they’re annoyed at the same questions over and over. There is no organization and no institutional knowledge. It’s like it ends up being set up by people who think it’s what the cool kids want. And these giant communities just exacerbate this issue. Everything ends up being noise. It’s the reason I usually ended up turning off the world or general channels in WoW. It just ended up being annoying and distracting.
When I’m trying resolve a situation that I need some sort of support I wanna be able to search if others have had the same issue and see discussion around that topic. I don’t need synchronous communication for that. I don’t care if it was 3 months ago someone had the problem if they figured out how to fix it. The way to do that is forums, Reddit (well before the enshittification), or even Lemmy.
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Are you using the dockerized version? If so it sets up (a) database etc.
I was being a bit lazy and tried this first https://community-scripts.github.io/ProxmoxVE/scripts?id=elementsynapse
I do have a few docker stacks running so I should just bite the bullet and go that route instead probably.
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Yeah I remember saying this when all online communities seemed to be going to discord and people seemed to mainly laugh at me in response at the time.
Fuck Discord
I despise discord from a user interface and business practice perspective. What a piece of shit
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Telegram is not a secure messenger.
Yes to multiple platforms, groups etc.
So, I'm going to say that I don't use telegram and only know it as being presented as a secure messenger platform. As a result, I am just asking follow-on questions to further discern what makes Element preferable. And this is no different because I feel like this is exactly the problem lemmy and other platforms like it have. There are people who love them, but when people ask about them, they don't offer any really informative data to support why they like them.
What makes Element (matrix) a secure platform, and how does that differ from telegram or signal or whatever. Like. What is matrix good at? That's what I'm asking. Why suggest it over something else?
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How large is large? A few hundreds? Not seeing any performance issues.
If we're talking about Matrix as a Discord alternative, then that would mean thousands of channels, each with hundreds or thousands of users, many with constant activity.
I'm not sure if anybody actually uses Matrix at the scale of the average Discord user. Sliding sync is supposed to help, but I don't think the Matrix architecture can realistically scale that high.
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So, I'm going to say that I don't use telegram and only know it as being presented as a secure messenger platform. As a result, I am just asking follow-on questions to further discern what makes Element preferable. And this is no different because I feel like this is exactly the problem lemmy and other platforms like it have. There are people who love them, but when people ask about them, they don't offer any really informative data to support why they like them.
What makes Element (matrix) a secure platform, and how does that differ from telegram or signal or whatever. Like. What is matrix good at? That's what I'm asking. Why suggest it over something else?
As a result, I am just asking follow-on questions to further discern what makes Element preferable.
If you are against a change in the first place you won't switch, anyway.
There are people who love them, but when people ask about them, they don't offer any really informative data to support why they like them.
Please, ask.
What makes Element (matrix) a secure platform, and how does that differ from telegram or signal or whatever. Like. What is matrix good at? That's what I'm asking. Why suggest it over something else?
Simple. It's fully free and open source. The server as well as the apps. Therefore, you can trust it as a privacy friendly solution a heck of a lot more, than any other solution like WhatsApp.
Signal is secure as well, but the server is centralized.
And Telegram is not considered secure because of their implementation and shady practices.
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If we're talking about Matrix as a Discord alternative, then that would mean thousands of channels, each with hundreds or thousands of users, many with constant activity.
I'm not sure if anybody actually uses Matrix at the scale of the average Discord user. Sliding sync is supposed to help, but I don't think the Matrix architecture can realistically scale that high.
You might have a very different definition of "average Discord user" than the average Discord user.
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You don't....you go back to forums. They're searchable. Discord and Facebook and well anything self hosted isnt via search engines
But many people don't want to have everything completely public, even if privacy is a illusion there.
We have to accept that and provide a solution for both.
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If I'm talking with people about the topical thing which is why I joined a room in the first place, the last thing I want is a looping autoloops fruityloops annoyance. Plus, not autoplaying and autolooping them saves battery.
I hate to break this to you but that means you're not normal. If all you ever do in chat is talk about serious things that are of such earth-shattering importance that it would be incredibly rude and obnoxious for someone to post a silent looping video you're not normal, and no fun at all.
The way Element currently works, it's made for people like you... A strange minority that probably only thinks about "chat" in terms of communicating for an end goal and not for the pleasure of conversation.
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You might have a very different definition of "average Discord user" than the average Discord user.
Or perhaps you do not understand how Discord is commonly used.
People join dozens of servers. Maybe one for every game they play, every TV show they watch, every podcast they listen to. Everything has a Discord.
Even small Discord servers have many channels. Bigger ones will have dozens or hundreds of channels.
Some servers have millions of users. Most of the servers I'm in have thousands.
Many channels are default for all users in the server.
Not sure what the mathematical average is, but this is certainly common at least, and any alternative that can't handle this is no alternative at all.
