Electronic devices or 'signal jammers' used in car thefts to be banned
-
This post did not contain any content.
"These devices have no legitimate purpose, apart from assisting in criminal activity, and reducing their availability will support policing and industry in preventing vehicle theft which is damaging to both individuals and businesses." She added
Yeah how about fuck off with this nonsense.
-
This post did not contain any content.
As if that would stop them. The problems are at this side, it is the complete ignorance and disregard of operational security in the automotive industry.
-
An SDR is not a signal jammer and the flipper zero can't clone a rolling code remote.
An SDR can be made to jam, even if that is not the normal purpose. Just like a kitchen knife can be used to murder people, instead of its normal culinary purpose.
Of course an F0 can't clone a rolling code as-is. I never said it could. But it can harvest and replay a single or multiple consecutive codes just fine, providing the original key is not used in the meantime. Only need physical access to the key while it is out of range of the vehicle.
This alone puts the F0 on dangerous ground as an "electronic device (such as a signal jammer) for use in theft of a vehicle or theft of anything in a vehicle"
People have locked out their original keys by messing with this before.
The point is that our laws are reactionary, vague, and open to too much interpretation.
If someone gets shit stolen out their car and I happen to be nearby, then I will become suspect merely through possession. Even without intent.
-
The article seems very non-technical. From what I read about the Flipper Zero, Playback attacks aren't supposed to work on modern cars that use rolling codes.
The only way the attack can work is if you intercept the signal from the keyfob while also preventing the keyfob's signal from reaching the car. Much easier said than done.Grab some keys out a bag in the office while the owner isn't looking.
Grab a code (it's out of vehicle range, being inside).
Go to the car park, replay the code and loot the car.
You'd be caught quickly, but it's doable.
-
Grab some keys out a bag in the office while the owner isn't looking.
Grab a code (it's out of vehicle range, being inside).
Go to the car park, replay the code and loot the car.
You'd be caught quickly, but it's doable.
If you already have access to the keys why bother with anything else?
-
If you already have access to the keys why bother with anything else?
You might not have access to the keys for a long period of time.
Only need a moment to take a code and leave the keys there. If the car isn't otherwise monitored, theft of contents without keys would be trivial.
You're probably getting busted anyway, but the concept is there.
-
This post did not contain any content.
Like banning kitchen knives because somebody got stabbed with one once.
-
Like banning kitchen knives because somebody got stabbed with one once.
More like banning USB sticks because between 2011 and 2021 KIA and Hyundai removed engine immobilizers from their car designs to save a few dollars which allowed their cars to be started by turning the ignition with literally anything.
-
This post did not contain any content.
So, only criminals will have them?
-
So, only criminals will have them?
Dang, there went all my legitimate plans for signal jamming.
-
More like banning USB sticks because between 2011 and 2021 KIA and Hyundai removed engine immobilizers from their car designs to save a few dollars which allowed their cars to be started by turning the ignition with literally anything.
Not removed - never added to the US designs. They were added afterwards to models being sold in places that require them.
-
I'm sure the people stealing cars will be right on that...
I won't speak to how the UK does things, but in the US this would make for an easier criminal charge.
It can be difficult to prove that someone stole (or is about to steal) a car, or broke in to steal the contents. This is especially true if they weren't apprehended in or with the vehicle itself. But if they are arrested on suspicion, and one of these devices is found on them, they can very easily be prosecuted for possession of criminal tools. It's similar to how we normies can't legally own a lockpicking kit unless we're locksmiths.
-
I'm sure the people stealing cars will be right on that...
Next they'll ban stealing cars
-
Not removed - never added to the US designs. They were added afterwards to models being sold in places that require them.
Which is like, the rest of the world
-
Dang, there went all my legitimate plans for signal jamming.
A microwave can be classified as a signal jammer. Yes, there are microwaves for cars and camping.
-
This post did not contain any content.
Hahaha it's so nice to read why? And it's because of crime. Huh? I ask why ban these. They say again crime. I go ah like guns then. Like you ban the engines of death not used in hunting ever but used to mow down kids in schools at an alarming rate? No? Ah. What do you mean then? Oh. You are saying there's legitimate use for an extended mag uzi that says kill kids on the side. But not something that can emit fm waves or whatever. Not the tech we use for literally all kind of wireless communications. Because why again? Because only the people that work with these things should have them? Oh so you mean the police and military should have assault rifles.... Oh. No okay the child slaying stays, the electromagnetic hacker devices are satanic. Got it. Yeah I'll get right on that.
-
A microwave can be classified as a signal jammer. Yes, there are microwaves for cars and camping.
And jamming signals can be useful in general for testing stuff, like mitigations for jamming. I did this at a physical security company I worked for where we needed to alert guards to jamming attempts.
-
An SDR can be made to jam, even if that is not the normal purpose. Just like a kitchen knife can be used to murder people, instead of its normal culinary purpose.
Of course an F0 can't clone a rolling code as-is. I never said it could. But it can harvest and replay a single or multiple consecutive codes just fine, providing the original key is not used in the meantime. Only need physical access to the key while it is out of range of the vehicle.
This alone puts the F0 on dangerous ground as an "electronic device (such as a signal jammer) for use in theft of a vehicle or theft of anything in a vehicle"
People have locked out their original keys by messing with this before.
The point is that our laws are reactionary, vague, and open to too much interpretation.
If someone gets shit stolen out their car and I happen to be nearby, then I will become suspect merely through possession. Even without intent.
Exactly!
To add to this, I used to work at a physical security company, and we needed to alert the guards of someone attempted to jam signals. How do you properly test that? By jamming signals!
I guess this scenario could be resolved through licensing, but that's a ridiculous solution since criminals could still get it.
It should be illegal to use a jammer maliciously or negligently. It shouldn't be illegal to posses one. Car manufacturers should also be held liable for losses due to lack of protection against jamming.
-
Next they'll ban stealing cars
As long as I can download one, I'm happy.
-
I won't speak to how the UK does things, but in the US this would make for an easier criminal charge.
It can be difficult to prove that someone stole (or is about to steal) a car, or broke in to steal the contents. This is especially true if they weren't apprehended in or with the vehicle itself. But if they are arrested on suspicion, and one of these devices is found on them, they can very easily be prosecuted for possession of criminal tools. It's similar to how we normies can't legally own a lockpicking kit unless we're locksmiths.
That doesn't make it okay.
And you can't own lock picking tools? Like, buying from this website is illegal? That's ridiculous!!
I can, and it's incredibly useful to DIY access locked doors in my house. I'm not calling a locksmith unless I can't figure it out, because that's expensive.
