[PSA] Lemmy account deletion is a mess
-
You're still missing the fundamental reality of the situation.
Stuff online generally doesn't get deleted. And almost never because you want it to. I think the EU passed a law about the "right to be forgotten". But the reality is, that's like fighting gravity. The effort and resources it takes to truly break orbit are far beyond most people's, and even most government's means. Same with truly deleting anything online.
But that's not what is being talked about. I don't think OP is expecting an all or nothing situation. You're talking like you've never deleted anything online
-
But that's not what is being talked about. I don't think OP is expecting an all or nothing situation. You're talking like you've never deleted anything online
Yes.
Op isn't expecting an all or nothing. I'm suggesting they should expect nothing. All isn't even worth talking about.And yes.
I've never deleted anything online. Never had a reason to. If I ever imagined a reason I'd want to delete something, I wouldn't post it to begin with. Because I know I can't delete it. See how that works. So what if I was wrong, or embarrassing, that's part of being human, own you're mistakes and move on. Don't hide them. They are who you were. They are how you got where you are. They're responsible for who you've become. Take pride in the failings of your past. -
Good use-case. Would it suffice to "unlink" the information in that case, instead of deleting it? I think that'd solve both problems. The posts and comments would stay in place for everyone to keep using them, but it'd say "by [deleted user]", so it's forgotten that you (or someone) wrote it.
I'm not sure. And we somehow need to present that to the user without overwhelming them with several options, delete account without data, delete account and unlink content, delete account and content...
Probably a technical consideration (like what if they have an edit timestamp which would allow a dedicated person to find all the comments unlinked at the exact same time), a personal consideration (what if you actually want that information purged as thoroughly as possible), and a legal consideration (sounds like it violates the GDPR)
-
Probably a technical consideration (like what if they have an edit timestamp which would allow a dedicated person to find all the comments unlinked at the exact same time), a personal consideration (what if you actually want that information purged as thoroughly as possible), and a legal consideration (sounds like it violates the GDPR)
Tl;dr: Yes, it's complicated.
Hmmh. I think 1) just means it has to be implemented properly. But you're right. That sounds exactly like something a developer would do. Unlink the information and at the same time add a timestamp that immediately links it again
And I'm not sure about 3) I'd have to read the GDPR again. Afaik it just mandates the user is provided with the ability to do so. Not that it needs to be the default.
And 2) is kind of my question. I suppose a user who is about to delete their account, might not be super relaxed and ready to deal with the intricate details. I mean they could be pissed and want out asap. Or something happened and they need to get it over with, quickly. Either way, it's probably not the right time to bother them with 500 questions and make them learn about the consequences. Though... They need to do the right thing. Once their account is gone, and it turns out they would have liked to delete more (or less), that's not really possible any more (without manual admin intervention). So maybe it's down to: delete everything in any case, and accept that it has a negative effect on the content on the platform.
It also has to be balanced with handling abuse etc since malicious actors use the same features to cover their tracks.
But I'm probably getting way ahead of where we are. OP said deletion doesn't even propagate through the federated network correctly. So realistically, we probably don't need to bother with the details several steps down the line.
-
Good use-case. Would it suffice to "unlink" the information in that case, instead of deleting it? I think that'd solve both problems. The posts and comments would stay in place for everyone to keep using them, but it'd say "by [deleted user]", so it's forgotten that you (or someone) wrote it.
I'm not sure. And we somehow need to present that to the user without overwhelming them with several options, delete account without data, delete account and unlink content, delete account and content...
It doesn't matter. If someone believes they've linked too much and wants to delete it, they should be able to. If someone wants to delete their content for any reason they should be able to.
-
Nothing is ever really deleted on the internet, especially if it was automatically replicated to dozens of other servers.
This is such a goofy take. Yes, obviously you can never be 100% there isn't some copy or archive laying somewhere, but wanting it to be deleted for 99% of the ways people would find it is reasonable. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
-
It doesn't matter. If someone believes they've linked too much and wants to delete it, they should be able to. If someone wants to delete their content for any reason they should be able to.
Honestly? No, they should t be able to blanket delete everything theyve posted on the off chance it's identifiable information
They should have the right to find that info and remove it, but I'm 1000% against people potentially taking down useful information from society and I do not care that people want to whine about their "right" to take their fucking ball back and end the game
So much useful info gone from Reddit because babies didn't want to keep supporting the bad site and now good luck finding it anywhere else
-
Honestly? No, they should t be able to blanket delete everything theyve posted on the off chance it's identifiable information
They should have the right to find that info and remove it, but I'm 1000% against people potentially taking down useful information from society and I do not care that people want to whine about their "right" to take their fucking ball back and end the game
So much useful info gone from Reddit because babies didn't want to keep supporting the bad site and now good luck finding it anywhere else
Exactly. And I sometimes find myself in the position where internet enshittification and content vanishing harms me more than it helps. So I'd like to balance this with the other side of the medal, where people might have legitimate interest to do so. But so far the argument has been "just because". And for me, that argument doesn't tip the scale to their direction. I still have tangible arguments not to over-delete. While the other side seems to be very theoretical.
-
Cheers to the lemmy.nz admin for misleading (very) their users with the futile idea of federation, all across the fediverse, to not just let this funny comment end up in a dead end locally.
How has anyone been mislead
-
Exactly. And I sometimes find myself in the position where internet enshittification and content vanishing harms me more than it helps. So I'd like to balance this with the other side of the medal, where people might have legitimate interest to do so. But so far the argument has been "just because". And for me, that argument doesn't tip the scale to their direction. I still have tangible arguments not to over-delete. While the other side seems to be very theoretical.
The thing is: if I cannot easily remove the information I want from what I produce, I might as well delete everything including what is useful.
And I'm not speaking hypotetically here. Everytime I struggle to find the comments about how my day went in a sea of "deleted by user" comment, I feel like I should just delete my whole history and start afresh. If Lemmy doesn't improve that way, all the effort I put guiding new users and posting on small community will go pouf... Because I won't take it much longer.
-
The thing is: if I cannot easily remove the information I want from what I produce, I might as well delete everything including what is useful.
And I'm not speaking hypotetically here. Everytime I struggle to find the comments about how my day went in a sea of "deleted by user" comment, I feel like I should just delete my whole history and start afresh. If Lemmy doesn't improve that way, all the effort I put guiding new users and posting on small community will go pouf... Because I won't take it much longer.
Sure. Question is: How can we improve? Is this a symptom for another missing feature? Or do we want to not address it and just provide one nuclear option? Would you for example like a feature for ephermeral comments, which auto-destruct after a week or so? PieFed has something like that for posts. Or the ability to categorize comments so you can find them later on? Or an option to (regularly) wipe your history, so you don't have to delete the whole account...
That's why I ask for exact reasons, and not just a vague feeling about how the platform is bad... I mean it is for some edge-cases like this. And I don't see how Lemmy would improve on this in the near future. Seems some of the groundworks still don't work properly. But this doesn't have to apply to other Fediverse software.
And sometimes I struggle to relate. I for example don't post anything on social media that's very private in nature. So I don't really have the use-case where I post someting publicly on social media, but then I want it gone at the same time. I suppose we just post different things, because I can see how you wouldn't have your daily state of mind available forever.
-
Honestly? No, they should t be able to blanket delete everything theyve posted on the off chance it's identifiable information
They should have the right to find that info and remove it, but I'm 1000% against people potentially taking down useful information from society and I do not care that people want to whine about their "right" to take their fucking ball back and end the game
So much useful info gone from Reddit because babies didn't want to keep supporting the bad site and now good luck finding it anywhere else
No, they should t be able to blanket delete everything theyve posted
They should have the right to find that info and remove it
Which is it? Or do you just have a problem with being able to easily delete the information?
-
Sure. Question is: How can we improve? Is this a symptom for another missing feature? Or do we want to not address it and just provide one nuclear option? Would you for example like a feature for ephermeral comments, which auto-destruct after a week or so? PieFed has something like that for posts. Or the ability to categorize comments so you can find them later on? Or an option to (regularly) wipe your history, so you don't have to delete the whole account...
That's why I ask for exact reasons, and not just a vague feeling about how the platform is bad... I mean it is for some edge-cases like this. And I don't see how Lemmy would improve on this in the near future. Seems some of the groundworks still don't work properly. But this doesn't have to apply to other Fediverse software.
And sometimes I struggle to relate. I for example don't post anything on social media that's very private in nature. So I don't really have the use-case where I post someting publicly on social media, but then I want it gone at the same time. I suppose we just post different things, because I can see how you wouldn't have your daily state of mind available forever.
I want erasure of my content to be full erasure. If I delete an account unless state otherwise, I want its content to be wipe out.
I want the comment I delete to be fully delete not just the word replace. If I deleted it there should not be in a database the time, date of a comment and my name associates to a "deleted by user" comment. There should be no comment at all and no possibility to store information related to what should not exist at all. -
Honestly? No, they should t be able to blanket delete everything theyve posted on the off chance it's identifiable information
They should have the right to find that info and remove it, but I'm 1000% against people potentially taking down useful information from society and I do not care that people want to whine about their "right" to take their fucking ball back and end the game
So much useful info gone from Reddit because babies didn't want to keep supporting the bad site and now good luck finding it anywhere else
You don't get to decide what's identifiable and what's not. How do you know the useful information isn't identifying?
-
You don't get to decide what's identifiable and what's not. How do you know the useful information isn't identifying?
Great reading comprehension dude
-
Great reading comprehension dude
You're just assuming helpful information is somehow separate from identifying information. That's not necessarily the case.
-
I want erasure of my content to be full erasure. If I delete an account unless state otherwise, I want its content to be wipe out.
I want the comment I delete to be fully delete not just the word replace. If I deleted it there should not be in a database the time, date of a comment and my name associates to a "deleted by user" comment. There should be no comment at all and no possibility to store information related to what should not exist at all.Fair enough. I guess we can skip the other options then, at least for your case. The replacement isn't implemented in a very thoughtful way, I agree. For technical reasons, you can't have it your way either. A platform with tree-style comments or replies can't have a comment in-between deleted entirely, or the rest of the tree will collapse. So there needs to be some empty placeholder. Or you just can't use platforms which allow users to reply to each other, but that's more a you-problem. I agree though, if you delete it, it can't have your username or content left behind. Thanks for raising this concern. I'm not sure if anyone ever put it on the agenda for Lemmy.
-
You're just assuming helpful information is somehow separate from identifying information. That's not necessarily the case.
No, I'm not. As stated: reading comprehension
My problem is mass deletion without consideration. Obviously if something is identifiable: remove it, but don't do so en masse without looking. It's not ideal, but it's your right to remove identifying info. If it doesn't actually ID someone they should leave it the fuck alone
-
How has anyone been mislead
I'm not sure what OP meant but I think none of the comments here are nailing it. If we say, we can't do anything unless it's 100% certain that all instances comply with the protocol, we might scrap the whole Fediverse idea altogether. Any post or comment or vote or deletion could be tempered with in one way or another. I mean we're clearly making an effort here to do federation. I don't really agree with the why and how of the whole discussion. My own point is, the software seems to have some bugs. Rarely, some comments and posts don't federate to me correctly, and more often than that, deletions don't federate correctly. Which seems to be one of OP's problems, but also while dealing with spam or malicious activities.
On the other hand, everyone who thinks it's super easy to just delete everything has never had a look at the consequences. Moderators and Admins sometimes need to deal with bad people, there are technical reasons involved. And bad people also misuse features. It's complicated for several reasons, difficult to get it right and it's always a balance between opposing legitimate interests.
But with that said, this doesn't apply to bugs. Lemmy should at least iron out the software bugs to federate activities to other instances properly.
-
No, I'm not. As stated: reading comprehension
My problem is mass deletion without consideration. Obviously if something is identifiable: remove it, but don't do so en masse without looking. It's not ideal, but it's your right to remove identifying info. If it doesn't actually ID someone they should leave it the fuck alone
So if someone is worried they've compromised their identity you'd want them to have to manually sift through potentially thousands of posts and comments?
