Europe has a 'real opportunity' to take in Americans fleeing Trump. Is it ready for a 'brain drain'?
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But 'we' also have an endless capacity of trying to help others and especially the Ukrainians who now have a job are being very appreciated as well. Not saying there is no hate, but the Americans who'd cross the pond are most likely the more wealthy and better educated than average. They might get some hate but they will probably be much more easily accepted as islamic and African immigrants.
Scientists who are black, hispanic etc. are "more wealthy and better educated than average", though.
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USA is basically China with a Gucci belt.
A gucci belt, made in China
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I fear that Europe, as is tradition, will fail to capitalise on this moment due to internal division, with China reaping most of the benefits as a result.
I would love to be wrong. I hope I am. I feel like an EU at the centre of global trade and geopolitics is the least awful option at this point in history. Although with the continued rise of the far right in France and Germany that may not be the case for much longer.
In this case the division means there are more then one ways to get to Europe. It also offers multiple different countries as options. The UK being Enlgish speaking and is culturally way closer to the US. Spain has the massive advantage of being Spanish speaking, which many Americans also speak at home. Many European countries like Germany and Italy offer citizenship by decent, which many Americans are eligable for. So in this case an advantage.
Also Europe is a much better place to live. A lot of people keep forgetting, but China is still a developing country. GDP per capita of China is about as high as that of Mexico. Another part less known is citizenship. The only way to get Chinese citizenship is by having Chinese family. Obviously that is not an option for most Americans.
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This is about Germany, though. I don't agree with the other person's point, but at least in Germany, Ukrainian refugees are well-liked - I pretty never hear anything bad about them even from the far right. Probably helps a lot that most of them are 1. white and 2. women and children.
With Ukrainians, we initially saw a wave of genuine support that I was happy about. But within months, politicians started using them as scapegoats. Friedrich Merz, likely the next German Chancellor, accused Ukrainians of "social welfare tourism" - as if they were fleeing bombs for German benefits. Similar rhetoric emerged in Poland and Hungary, where the initial "these are Europeans like us" sentiment gave way to the same xenophobic patterns.
The point is - even that initial acceptance runs out eventually. No matter who you are, we will eventually turn against you given enough time. Americans coming now might be welcomed as "expats" with valuable skills, but as soon as there's another economic downturn or political shift, they'll be "immigrants taking our jobs" or "ruining our housing market."
I completely agree there are many Europeans who genuinely want to help others. I am one of them! But our systems and policies don't reflect those values - they reflect fear and nationalism that eventually targets everyone seen as "other."
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Ok but will they take useless dumbasses like me who hate trump?
If you enlist instead of us, why not?
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A big problem with many people moving out is that they will be missing as opposition and reason. To a degree, it reduces the chances of the US to reform itself.
I don't really feel any attachment to a geographical position.
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Why would they prefer Europe to Canada?
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But 'we' also have an endless capacity of trying to help others and especially the Ukrainians who now have a job are being very appreciated as well. Not saying there is no hate, but the Americans who'd cross the pond are most likely the more wealthy and better educated than average. They might get some hate but they will probably be much more easily accepted as islamic and African immigrants.
Our "capacity to help" is inconsistent and conditional. Yes, there was initial support for Ukrainian refugees, but as I mentioned in another post politicians like Friedrich Merz (likely next German Chancellor) soon accused them of "social welfare tourism." Same happened e.g. in Poland. The welcome narrative quickly gave way to scapegoating.
This pattern happens repeatedly. We initially welcome groups based on perceived usefulness or cultural similarity, then turn on them when convenient. Polish workers in the UK went from being praised as hardworking to being blamed for "stealing jobs" and straining services.
You're assuming Americans would be "more easily accepted" because they're "wealthy and educated," but this ignores how xenophobia operates. Brexit campaigners didn't distinguish between Polish doctors and laborers - they lumped all migrants together.
Even well-off migrants become targets during economic downturns. Look at how Romanian doctors and nurses in the UK were treated during Brexit despite filling critical NHS shortages. Or how German refugees after WWII faced hostility from other Germans.
Our immigration policies aren't based on humanitarian concerns but on economic utility and cultural anxieties. When politicians need scapegoats, they'll target any migrant group regardless of their contributions.
The Americans who'd face the most persecution under Trump are often the same ones who'd face discrimination here - LGBTQ+ people, religious minorities, and people of color. The idea that we'd somehow treat them better than other migrants ignores Europe's deep-seated xenophobia.
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A big problem with many people moving out is that they will be missing as opposition and reason. To a degree, it reduces the chances of the US to reform itself.
I would not see it so strictly.
Academics for the most part contribute "thought". They are much better at doing so living in freedom outside the US than rotting in a prison cell inside the US, or in one of the crowny countries doing the dirty work for the US.
They are missing in doing the ground work of course. On the other hand they stop contributing to the system with their work, their taxes, their presence giving legitimacy... So it makes the system unstable faster and result in it falling apart, leaving space for something new, faster.
In authoritarian regimes it is very rare that they reform themselves. Usually they collapse, mostly in an ugly way. In the case of the US i don't think that there is currently any hope to be set into reform from inside the system. For every crazed Republican in power we see a Democrat in power who wants to maintain the system, maintain the systemic issues that lead to Trump not once but twice and last but not least is enjoying many of the oppressive and racist policies that were implemented by Trump during his first term. Looking at mass deportations, "the wall", violent crackdowns on peaceful protestors, or looking a bit longer running the continued operation of Guantanamo Bay, continuing the illegal occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq...
So in the case of the US there isn't just the extreme-right, there is also the complicit "center" that opposes changing the system and is in part happy with the further pushes to the extreme-right. This complicit block won't change their attitude and they wont stop keeping progressives in check for the regime until they are personally suffering. It is the Bidens and Harrises the Schumers and Fettermans that prevented a proper response and structural change after Trumps first term and now embrace cooperation with Trump and enjoying that he does some dirty work for them, like continuing the genocide in Palestine
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Why would they prefer Europe to Canada?
Public transport
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If you want to do stem in another country there are only two choices that make sense: Britain and Germany. Everywhere else is either difficult to immigrate to in terms of culture, language, policy, or just doesn't have a critical mass of scientists and engineers.
I'm from the netherlands and educated foreigners always mention how easy it is to migrate here because so many of us speak English. I've heard the same of scandinavian countries. Would you say they are a worse choice if you want to do stem? Just curious.
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Our "capacity to help" is inconsistent and conditional. Yes, there was initial support for Ukrainian refugees, but as I mentioned in another post politicians like Friedrich Merz (likely next German Chancellor) soon accused them of "social welfare tourism." Same happened e.g. in Poland. The welcome narrative quickly gave way to scapegoating.
This pattern happens repeatedly. We initially welcome groups based on perceived usefulness or cultural similarity, then turn on them when convenient. Polish workers in the UK went from being praised as hardworking to being blamed for "stealing jobs" and straining services.
You're assuming Americans would be "more easily accepted" because they're "wealthy and educated," but this ignores how xenophobia operates. Brexit campaigners didn't distinguish between Polish doctors and laborers - they lumped all migrants together.
Even well-off migrants become targets during economic downturns. Look at how Romanian doctors and nurses in the UK were treated during Brexit despite filling critical NHS shortages. Or how German refugees after WWII faced hostility from other Germans.
Our immigration policies aren't based on humanitarian concerns but on economic utility and cultural anxieties. When politicians need scapegoats, they'll target any migrant group regardless of their contributions.
The Americans who'd face the most persecution under Trump are often the same ones who'd face discrimination here - LGBTQ+ people, religious minorities, and people of color. The idea that we'd somehow treat them better than other migrants ignores Europe's deep-seated xenophobia.
The Americans who'd face the most persecution under Trump are often the same ones who'd face discrimination here - LGBTQ+ people, religious minorities, and people of color. The idea that we'd somehow treat them better than other migrants ignores Europe's deep-seated xenophobia.
I don't disagree, but I do believe there (unfortunately) is a scale of how well migrants are generally treated that is based on their culture. education and economic status.
I also don't disagree with you saying there is a deep-seated xenophobia, but I do believe if you choose to migrate from where ever to where ever you'll come across people who act xenophobic and racist. Humans tend to like the familiar better than the unfamiliar. Also, wherever you go you will have people (though politicians more than any) using this basic fear to further their agenda. 'We' humans are good and bad, often a curious mix of both and most of us have deep-seated fears and most of us are vulnerable to being influenced by others with a good story. Despite this, I still think immigration in general is a good thing. Not always, not every form; but people deciding to move from a bad place to a good place is a good thing.
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The Americans who'd face the most persecution under Trump are often the same ones who'd face discrimination here - LGBTQ+ people, religious minorities, and people of color. The idea that we'd somehow treat them better than other migrants ignores Europe's deep-seated xenophobia.
I don't disagree, but I do believe there (unfortunately) is a scale of how well migrants are generally treated that is based on their culture. education and economic status.
I also don't disagree with you saying there is a deep-seated xenophobia, but I do believe if you choose to migrate from where ever to where ever you'll come across people who act xenophobic and racist. Humans tend to like the familiar better than the unfamiliar. Also, wherever you go you will have people (though politicians more than any) using this basic fear to further their agenda. 'We' humans are good and bad, often a curious mix of both and most of us have deep-seated fears and most of us are vulnerable to being influenced by others with a good story. Despite this, I still think immigration in general is a good thing. Not always, not every form; but people deciding to move from a bad place to a good place is a good thing.
No argument here, I think humans are being racist/xenophobic in general. The best example imo is the hatred against Syrian refugees in Libanon and Jordan, where people even speak the same language, have the same food and culture, and mostly have the same religion.
I guess I would just wish that we would actually live those "Western values" we keep talking about. And I definitely wish the best for all those wanting to flee from Trump, I would consider that too if Iâd be in the US.
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I read the entire article trying to find out what the author meant with the title, still don't know who's brain is implied to be drained in the scenario.
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Oh the irony:
`Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame."Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"`"Keep, ancient lands, your destroying Trump,
Give me your fired, your queer,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." -
I fear that Europe, as is tradition, will fail to capitalise on this moment due to internal division, with China reaping most of the benefits as a result.
I would love to be wrong. I hope I am. I feel like an EU at the centre of global trade and geopolitics is the least awful option at this point in history. Although with the continued rise of the far right in France and Germany that may not be the case for much longer.
I fear that Europe, as is tradition, will fail to capitalise on this moment due to internal division, with China reaping most of the benefits as a result.
I doubt that people who dislike US authoritarianism are gonna move to China, a literal dictatorship straight out of 1984.
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No argument here, I think humans are being racist/xenophobic in general. The best example imo is the hatred against Syrian refugees in Libanon and Jordan, where people even speak the same language, have the same food and culture, and mostly have the same religion.
I guess I would just wish that we would actually live those "Western values" we keep talking about. And I definitely wish the best for all those wanting to flee from Trump, I would consider that too if Iâd be in the US.
Yea I agree. I try to live my values, feel like that hard enough.
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If you want to do stem in another country there are only two choices that make sense: Britain and Germany. Everywhere else is either difficult to immigrate to in terms of culture, language, policy, or just doesn't have a critical mass of scientists and engineers.
People tend to underestimate the need for speaking German in Germany though. Depending on your location and social circle, you might not need much of it day to day. But certain administrative stuff definitely requires a decent understanding (and you really don't want to misunderstand letters from the government).
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I don't think that's a good idea, you really don't want Americans in your backyard.
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A big problem with many people moving out is that they will be missing as opposition and reason. To a degree, it reduces the chances of the US to reform itself.
Fair point but if the US insists on being run like a business, then I'm going to treat it like one.
If I go to a restaurant with shitty food and shitty service, I'm paying my tab, leaving, and never coming back.
I'm not going to waste my time going home and writing yelp reviews so that the manager can offer me a free appetizer the next time I come in.
Place sucks.
