[Serious] Jews of Lemmy, what are your family conversations about the war like?
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I cannot defend the establishment of new settlements in taken territories. All I can say is palastine has had plenty of chances to maintain and keep their territories. Like I've said, Israel even tried to hand back large amounts of land, but that was jut followed by palistinian attack. Over and over again Hamas has decided that peace is not the way forward. I don't believe this is the fault of the average Palistinian though. I believe this is the fault of the palistinian leadership which uses these wars like a piggy bank. Robbing their people of billions in aid money while living in luxury in Quatar and other arab states. They're not waging these wars because they think they can win. They are doing it because they think they can profit. And I strongly believe, hell, I know, that Russia had a huge hand in pushing Hamas toward Oct 7 in order to distrac the west from Ukraine. If we're being honest, its was an absolutely masterful move by Putiin because, it 1. distracted from Ukraine and 2. split liberal voters in the west. And I think this really needs to be acknowledged a lot more than it is.
I'll say this though. I do not believe a two state solution is realistic or possible. The hatred of palistinians toward jews is just too systemically ingrained and indoctrinated. This system of indoctrination of Palistinian youth needs to be completely dismantled for there to be a lasting peace. And I don't think that will ever happen while a seperate (from Israel) Palastine exists. I think Israel knows this well, and what we're seeing now is Israel trying to unite the two lands through force. They are trying to end the war for good. Israel and Palestine need to be one nation. And arabs and Israelis need to learn to live in peace. It is the only sustainable path forward.
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Why did Palestinians start hating Jews?
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What did Israel do to help resolve that conflict?
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Which side has disproportionately taken casualties throughout the history of the nation?
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Which side has a military doctrine which allows for nuking any invading force?
I think #1 is probably a good starting point to come to grips with the reasons for the Palestinian people fighting, literally, for survival.
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we could have a big argument on the power dynamics you're talking about, and I don't really want to, but I will note the slew of pogroms in the middle east and ask you read about why the Bar Giora was formed. This was not a one sided affair.
and you talk about murdering whole families as if that wasn't the intent of pogroms. Again, both perspectives need to be taken into account.
as for the stuff about the Judenrates, I don't really want to play games with you. Tell me what your point is or drop it.
and you talk about murdering whole families as if that wasn’t the intent of pogroms
Guess I missed the Palestinian pogroms which justified Israel's genocidal war on the Palestinian people.
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we could have a big argument on the power dynamics you're talking about, and I don't really want to, but I will note the slew of pogroms in the middle east and ask you read about why the Bar Giora was formed. This was not a one sided affair.
and you talk about murdering whole families as if that wasn't the intent of pogroms. Again, both perspectives need to be taken into account.
as for the stuff about the Judenrates, I don't really want to play games with you. Tell me what your point is or drop it.
I will note the slew of pogroms in the middle east and ask you read about why the Bar Giora was formed.
I understand that you are trying to draw a direct line from the modern IDF to a historic Jewish Resistance Movement. However, I would argue that it was coopted by foreign powers and abandoned it's goal of an independent jewish state after it's transformation into the Haganah and transitioned from a defensive force (largely support) to a colonizing force (don't support).
I do not support the Ottoman empire in its persecution of religious minorities. However, I do not see how your logic and worldview wouldn't support the Ottomans in persecuting the Jewish people at the time due to their militant tactics. What perspective am I missing?
Tell me what your point is or drop it.
The point is controlled opposition, perverse incentives, and the power/danger of "sell outs".
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I cannot defend the establishment of new settlements in taken territories. All I can say is palastine has had plenty of chances to maintain and keep their territories. Like I've said, Israel even tried to hand back large amounts of land, but that was jut followed by palistinian attack. Over and over again Hamas has decided that peace is not the way forward. I don't believe this is the fault of the average Palistinian though. I believe this is the fault of the palistinian leadership which uses these wars like a piggy bank. Robbing their people of billions in aid money while living in luxury in Quatar and other arab states. They're not waging these wars because they think they can win. They are doing it because they think they can profit. And I strongly believe, hell, I know, that Russia had a huge hand in pushing Hamas toward Oct 7 in order to distrac the west from Ukraine. If we're being honest, its was an absolutely masterful move by Putiin because, it 1. distracted from Ukraine and 2. split liberal voters in the west. And I think this really needs to be acknowledged a lot more than it is.
I'll say this though. I do not believe a two state solution is realistic or possible. The hatred of palistinians toward jews is just too systemically ingrained and indoctrinated. This system of indoctrination of Palistinian youth needs to be completely dismantled for there to be a lasting peace. And I don't think that will ever happen while a seperate (from Israel) Palastine exists. I think Israel knows this well, and what we're seeing now is Israel trying to unite the two lands through force. They are trying to end the war for good. Israel and Palestine need to be one nation. And arabs and Israelis need to learn to live in peace. It is the only sustainable path forward.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Hey, I agree with you, a two state solution isn't viable (albeit for the opposite reason, that Isreal is a beligerant, expansionist, genocidal state that should not exist). Now, as a "leftist," I'm sure that you'd agree that, if everyone's going to be part of the same state, then of course everyone should have equal rights, including voting rights, correct? You want every Palestinian to have the same voice in government that Israeli citizens do, right?
Or is it that when you call for a one state solution, what you mean is that you want to continue denying them rights within your own state while also preventing them from having their own state? To seize their territory and then have them remain as second class citizens who are denied fundamental human rights? For your race to reign dominant over others?
You don't need to answer, I think we all know the answer to that question, fascist.
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My ex is Jewish and my kids are half Jewish. Our discussions have been focused on the fact that what Netanyahu is doing has been making Jews less safe around the world. anti-Semitism is rising because of the fact he is murdering innocent people and children
My kids are less safe because of the Israeli PM and his Zionist government
I wonder if they admit that other prime ministers been oppressing Palestinians too and resulted Hamas throwing rockets toward Israel
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How did you manage to differ?
The woke mind virus got me.I think it comes down to exposing myself to other people and their perspectives. As a teen I was as racist as any Zionist. Once I moved away from home and met people from outside of my insulated Zionist/Jewish community I started hearing other perspectives. This led me to take a serious look at Zionism and the state of Israel including how they operate to maintain apartheid. I didn't like what I saw, I tend to be an empathetic person so it really hurt to see my people and culture I identified with take part in these Injustices.
What followed was years of deprogramming and the painful process of coming to terms with the fact that Israel were the bad guys in this scenario. I grew up in the West Bank on a settlement so the roots went deep and they were painful to RIP out. A great eye opening book I read was "A Day In The Life Of Abed Salama". It really helped connect the puzzle pieces and pull down the propaganda curtain that I experienced growing up in a Jewish settlement.
Also my parents were born in the 60s so probably lead poisoning right?
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I'm going to give an honest answer, but i fully expect to be downvoted and demonized for doing so. Nothing I can do about that, but op, you want an honest answer, this is it. I'll also add that I would 100% consider myself leftist, in fact, extremely leftist in most of my views. Why the hell would my username be what it is and why the hell would I be on lemmy if I wasn't... anyway... here's the answer since you asked for it:
The large majority of jews I know, including myself and my family feel like this current war is the fault of Hamas. Oct 7 doesn't happen, this war doesn't happen. We also are continually annoyed by the fact that most people on the left, constantly refuse to acknowledge that Hamas has been pushing this war forward non-stop for decades. All you have to do is look up number of missiles launched at Israel since 2000 to see that. People no-doubt try to rebut this by saying "but Israel has been stealing territory". My constant response to that is they have been taking territory to establish buffer zones to enhance security. As almost all of this land has been taken after conflict. Israel even tried to give back some of this land, but was then attacked again, and had to take land back in order to protect itself -- But eventually our conversation just goes back to why this is even happening and we are always frustrated by the fact that any argument from the left condemning Zionists always begins in 1948 -- when in fact the troubles of the region started hundreds of years before that. This pre-1948 history seems to never be brought up however. So the blame is always cast 100% on jews and all of the attacks on Jewish civilians within Israel are never ever given the time of day.
It's incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into "jews are evil", and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it. Jews are never going to willingly leave Israel and Hamas is never going to stop trying to eradicate jews. There are only 16ish million jews on the planet and almost 2 billion Muslims. There is no way jews could ever win this propaganda war. I think a lot of jews who feel they are on the left side of the political spectrum are too scared to even speak about their feelings on Israel/Palestine at the moment, because they know they are going to be vastly outnumbered and demonized, by those they would usually consider friends, with anything they say. So most of us are silent on the subject because we don't want to be ostracized.
I will end this by saying, we of course feel bad for civilians caught in the crossfire, but we feel like Jewish civilians are not given that same respect. The sentiment we get is that Jewish civilians seem to deserve it.
Every time Hamas launched rockets, it was in response to Israel expelling more Palestinians from the West Bank and to increased violence by settlers.
Please please oppose and put pressure on Israel occupation so atrocities end on both side
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and you talk about murdering whole families as if that wasn’t the intent of pogroms
Guess I missed the Palestinian pogroms which justified Israel's genocidal war on the Palestinian people.
The time period they are referencing (old history at this point...) the Ottoman empire was in control of the area and it operated as something of an apartheid state. Pogroms, persecution and oppression absolutely happened. However it was mostly a new import from western Europe. Jewish citizens were second class but they were still "people of the book" and fared much better for most of the empire's history.
However, understanding a bit more history there is a direct through line from those historical wrongs and the modern Palestinian genocide. It is just a continuation of the Spanish, Portuguese and British (amongst others) campaign against ethnicly semetic peoples that the Jewish people also historically fell victim to.
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we could have a big argument on the power dynamics you're talking about, and I don't really want to, but I will note the slew of pogroms in the middle east and ask you read about why the Bar Giora was formed. This was not a one sided affair.
and you talk about murdering whole families as if that wasn't the intent of pogroms. Again, both perspectives need to be taken into account.
as for the stuff about the Judenrates, I don't really want to play games with you. Tell me what your point is or drop it.
There is zero big argument about power dynamic, Israel could easily reoccupy all territories if Hamas do not stop launching rockets after ending colonization
It so easy to go back to history and cherry pick violence from any side . For example Jewish kingdom did force conversion to Judaism and destroy villages , no jew should be hated for events like that just like Palestinians has no culpability in war happen in pogroms made by Arabs and even Christians .
Despite the mufti effort, most Arab sided with allies and not the Nazi Germany. 13k Palestinians volunteered to fight . There was Yemeni jews that migrated to Palestine and Palestinians and them was visiting each other festivities . During the Reconquista it was the ottoman and African speaking Arabic countries who accepted jews to the land they control
I don't justify violence but there was violence because Palestinians started to realize Zionists intention to force a state on local people . During the violence there was also other Arabs protecting the jews. Like in Hebron massacres over 400 jews was saved by their Arab neighbors.
Once the state of Israel was created they could have lived in it but instead decided in 67 to occupy Gaza and west bank and started building settlements making a two state solution impossible
after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine - Ben Gurion
The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” - Menachem Begin
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I cannot defend the establishment of new settlements in taken territories. All I can say is palastine has had plenty of chances to maintain and keep their territories. Like I've said, Israel even tried to hand back large amounts of land, but that was jut followed by palistinian attack. Over and over again Hamas has decided that peace is not the way forward. I don't believe this is the fault of the average Palistinian though. I believe this is the fault of the palistinian leadership which uses these wars like a piggy bank. Robbing their people of billions in aid money while living in luxury in Quatar and other arab states. They're not waging these wars because they think they can win. They are doing it because they think they can profit. And I strongly believe, hell, I know, that Russia had a huge hand in pushing Hamas toward Oct 7 in order to distrac the west from Ukraine. If we're being honest, its was an absolutely masterful move by Putiin because, it 1. distracted from Ukraine and 2. split liberal voters in the west. And I think this really needs to be acknowledged a lot more than it is.
I'll say this though. I do not believe a two state solution is realistic or possible. The hatred of palistinians toward jews is just too systemically ingrained and indoctrinated. This system of indoctrination of Palistinian youth needs to be completely dismantled for there to be a lasting peace. And I don't think that will ever happen while a seperate (from Israel) Palastine exists. I think Israel knows this well, and what we're seeing now is Israel trying to unite the two lands through force. They are trying to end the war for good. Israel and Palestine need to be one nation. And arabs and Israelis need to learn to live in peace. It is the only sustainable path forward.
Not even Israel really believe the deals was great deal to Palestinians. Israel should give back all occupied land expect Israel it self of course unconditionally
Camp David was not the missed opportunity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well. - Shlomo ben ami
The hatred of Palestinians toward jews is just too systemically ingrained and indoctrinated
This is exactly the same excuse people was saying to justify maintaining the apartheid in south Africa. They claimed that black people would get vengeance on white people .
There is many example of successful reconciliations between countries , population and groups in civil wars -
I'm going to give an honest answer, but i fully expect to be downvoted and demonized for doing so. Nothing I can do about that, but op, you want an honest answer, this is it. I'll also add that I would 100% consider myself leftist, in fact, extremely leftist in most of my views. Why the hell would my username be what it is and why the hell would I be on lemmy if I wasn't... anyway... here's the answer since you asked for it:
The large majority of jews I know, including myself and my family feel like this current war is the fault of Hamas. Oct 7 doesn't happen, this war doesn't happen. We also are continually annoyed by the fact that most people on the left, constantly refuse to acknowledge that Hamas has been pushing this war forward non-stop for decades. All you have to do is look up number of missiles launched at Israel since 2000 to see that. People no-doubt try to rebut this by saying "but Israel has been stealing territory". My constant response to that is they have been taking territory to establish buffer zones to enhance security. As almost all of this land has been taken after conflict. Israel even tried to give back some of this land, but was then attacked again, and had to take land back in order to protect itself -- But eventually our conversation just goes back to why this is even happening and we are always frustrated by the fact that any argument from the left condemning Zionists always begins in 1948 -- when in fact the troubles of the region started hundreds of years before that. This pre-1948 history seems to never be brought up however. So the blame is always cast 100% on jews and all of the attacks on Jewish civilians within Israel are never ever given the time of day.
It's incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into "jews are evil", and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it. Jews are never going to willingly leave Israel and Hamas is never going to stop trying to eradicate jews. There are only 16ish million jews on the planet and almost 2 billion Muslims. There is no way jews could ever win this propaganda war. I think a lot of jews who feel they are on the left side of the political spectrum are too scared to even speak about their feelings on Israel/Palestine at the moment, because they know they are going to be vastly outnumbered and demonized, by those they would usually consider friends, with anything they say. So most of us are silent on the subject because we don't want to be ostracized.
I will end this by saying, we of course feel bad for civilians caught in the crossfire, but we feel like Jewish civilians are not given that same respect. The sentiment we get is that Jewish civilians seem to deserve it.
The Zionist cries in pain as they strike you
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Apologies in advance for the wall of text. We've had a lot of conversations....
Spouse is half Israeli with lots of family over there. I'm casually Jewish with AuDHD for context so we tend to see things really differently.
I personally don't like that religious countries exist in the first place. So I'm not only against Israel, but also most countries in that part of the world. "Just nuke that entire part of the world" has been mentioned quite a few times. So that's a bit of the conversation.
We tend to focus on the hostages when we talk about the war, and that Israel may be winning the ground war but it's losing the pr war.
We blame Bibi for keeping the war going and not making more surgical spy-type strikes. I used to say that he had one day to get the world behind him and say "look, this is what I've been talking about about!!!" That was all dismissed though when the first cease fire happened. Hamas broke it by sending some small numbers of missiles that got caught by the iron dome and Israel retaliated by sending 100x the number of missiles, killing several people. The news outlets all led with Israel sending the rockets and only briefly mentioned that Hamas struck first.
We blame Hamas for keeping all of their leaders in other countries and all of their weapons and missile silos in civilians backyards. Treating their citizens like shit and saying the only way their family is guaranteed to not go hungry is to join the military....
Just putting this out there .... If you're American and not native American. And native Americans were yelling "from sea to shining sea the native American tribes must be free" and started killing people, started saying how they want their land back and everything ..... How would that be treated?
You cannot seriously be blaming the people in a concentration camp for richting back.
Lovely how Israelis compare themselves to genocidal American colonizers and think they have a point.
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I don't even know what anyone means when they throw out "liberal" anymore.
to me libs are hypocrites who try to not anger any side too much
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I'm going to give an honest answer, but i fully expect to be downvoted and demonized for doing so. Nothing I can do about that, but op, you want an honest answer, this is it. I'll also add that I would 100% consider myself leftist, in fact, extremely leftist in most of my views. Why the hell would my username be what it is and why the hell would I be on lemmy if I wasn't... anyway... here's the answer since you asked for it:
The large majority of jews I know, including myself and my family feel like this current war is the fault of Hamas. Oct 7 doesn't happen, this war doesn't happen. We also are continually annoyed by the fact that most people on the left, constantly refuse to acknowledge that Hamas has been pushing this war forward non-stop for decades. All you have to do is look up number of missiles launched at Israel since 2000 to see that. People no-doubt try to rebut this by saying "but Israel has been stealing territory". My constant response to that is they have been taking territory to establish buffer zones to enhance security. As almost all of this land has been taken after conflict. Israel even tried to give back some of this land, but was then attacked again, and had to take land back in order to protect itself -- But eventually our conversation just goes back to why this is even happening and we are always frustrated by the fact that any argument from the left condemning Zionists always begins in 1948 -- when in fact the troubles of the region started hundreds of years before that. This pre-1948 history seems to never be brought up however. So the blame is always cast 100% on jews and all of the attacks on Jewish civilians within Israel are never ever given the time of day.
It's incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into "jews are evil", and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it. Jews are never going to willingly leave Israel and Hamas is never going to stop trying to eradicate jews. There are only 16ish million jews on the planet and almost 2 billion Muslims. There is no way jews could ever win this propaganda war. I think a lot of jews who feel they are on the left side of the political spectrum are too scared to even speak about their feelings on Israel/Palestine at the moment, because they know they are going to be vastly outnumbered and demonized, by those they would usually consider friends, with anything they say. So most of us are silent on the subject because we don't want to be ostracized.
I will end this by saying, we of course feel bad for civilians caught in the crossfire, but we feel like Jewish civilians are not given that same respect. The sentiment we get is that Jewish civilians seem to deserve it.
It’s incredibly frustrating and scary, because the narrative is fully turning into “jews are evil”, and there is nothing any Jewish person can do about it.
If it's any kind of comfort to you, I got radicalized against Zionism by jews. A lot of jewish observers are fighting to free Palestine.
I did hear some palestinian or muslim speak out against Israel's inhuman apartheid state, but jews have been making the best case I've heard for freeing palestine.
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
Its a genocide, not a war
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Just wanted to say you're getting a skewed picture of people's opinions, as Lemmy isn't popular / well known at all in Israel.
The absolute majority of Jews in Israel are united in wanting the hostages back (currently 58, of which an estimated half are still alive).
A lot want that and to end the war ASAP, not for any real concern for the Palestinians, but for the troops, the economy, and world image.
A lot want to keep going to eradicate Hamas and Hezbollah and Houthis to prevent October 7th from ever happening again.
It's difficult to be pro Palestinian when your friends and family have been slaughtered or held hostage by a (seemingly) unprovoked attack against soldiers and civilians.
The Overton window in Israel doesn't currently allow it, though things might have been changing very recently.
At least here, we don't discuss it much in the same way we don't discuss the mountain near town; it's there, we can't move it, shrug your shoulders, it's part of the landscape.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Important distinction that might help you: Being against this war doesn't make you "Pro Palestinian," it just makes you anti-war, and especially, anti-genocide. On the flip side, being anti-war/ anti-genocide doesn't make you anti-Semitic.
Genocide is NEVER justified.
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
I’m an American atheist Jew, and I’ve had conversations with my (converted) mother about it. She’s pretty solidly on Israel’s side, but she’s also not very educated about the conflict. She just kinda goes by the mainstream media’s narrative and doesn’t think too much beyond that. When I present her with information, she’s horrified and agrees with me that “Israel is going too far,” but it never results in her thinking the U.S. should stop sending them money. She hates Netanyahu and his conservative government, but she’s very hung up on Hamas being a terrorist organization. And I suppose I am too, to be honest. I want a free Palestine and for the Israeli settlers to be expelled, but I don’t want to support Hamas and I think they should pretty much be eradicated. I’m just much more willing to condemn Israel for their actions than she is; she’s very caught on the idea that Israel has a right to defend itself from Palestinian terrorism, and has a hard time seeing that it’s gone way past that at this point.
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Bibi literally admitted that the Israeli government feeds Hamas in order to have excuses for the war. “Hamas struck first”, should always be followed with “Israel is an invading power committing genocide”. You would've been the kind of German who would always justify the Nazi occupations, because “the partisans struck first”, Then feel righteous because you think Hitler shouldn't be the one leading the Reich. Like, even your example is ignoring the fact that the British committed genocide against Native Americans, then the American state continued it.
Link for the "literally admit" claim?
His words have always been to the effect of the reason we're not letting aid in is because hamas steals it from the people and lets them go hungry
Btw We still blame Bibi for not handling the war properly, only even agreeing to sit at the table for peace talks once he knew that trump would give him unlimited usage of weapons, and many other things.
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You cannot seriously be blaming the people in a concentration camp for richting back.
Lovely how Israelis compare themselves to genocidal American colonizers and think they have a point.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]No. The native American bit was for the "why don't Israelis just leave/give back the land?" people... Because after 70+ years people have grown up, worked hard, bought land, raised families, etc.
nobody I know in America would want to say "hey, I worked my whole life to (own my property, build my business, raise my family, etc) ... If the native Americans asked really hard I'd give it back" ...
But a lot of people are saying that the Israelis should just leave.
Edit. The other bit is that there are Muslims who live in Israel. There are Christians/atheists/etc who live in Israel as well.
Jews aren't welcome in SA, Iraq, Iran...
Concentration camp is not a good analogy for what's going on here
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
My family overwhelmingly supports the genocide and the Israeli government. My father even thinks they arent going far enough and my mother just wants it to look pretty. The majority of Jewish people (especially religious people) see not only Palestinians but all muslims as lesser people.
Im not intrested in hearing "not all Jews" like its supposed to make me feel better because it doesn't. It just whitewashes real issues and fundamental problems with the Jewish community. The simple fact that Zionists control Jewish education and own most Jewish institutions, and they use it to spread hate.
