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  3. Can you please help me clear some doubts regarding LGBTQIA stuff?

Can you please help me clear some doubts regarding LGBTQIA stuff?

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  • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

    TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?

    I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person's identity.

    Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a "different gender". I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.

    And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.

    Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.

    My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?

    Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my "attire" says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a "personal" conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what "orientation" (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?

    The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?

    I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some "positive discrimination" (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)

    If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)

    Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)

    edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr

    koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK This user is from outside of this forum
    koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote on last edited by [email protected]
    #4

    Firstly, I think you're conflating gender with sexual identity. Gender isn't covered by any of the LGBTQIA2+ initials; it's important (to some people) to inform someone of upon meeting them, because it usually relates to their preferred pronouns, and if someone appears outwardly male but prefers to be referred to as 'They' (or any other combination of gender + pronoun), that needs to be disclosed. You've probably never felt the need to do this because (as you state) you're male and you identify as male and your outward appearance is male, so I'm going to assume you've never had anyone misgender you, but not everyone is so lucky - or privileged, you might say.

    But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?

    This is just how the English language works. Personally, I've never met anyone who got upset if someone used a gender neutral pronoun (though I understand those people do exist). If you want to make it easy on yourself, just use They/Them for everyone; English just happens to not be too well-equipped for this, and it can cause confusion in some contexts (singular vs. plural, or when trying to single a particular person out of a crowd). Some of the other pronouns that you've probably heard were an attempt to create a singular gender neutral pronoun but none have really stuck in wide use.

    The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information.

    This is likely because you're ace. If you had a sexual interest in someone, you might be interested to know what gender they preferred.

    I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender.

    We don't. This is separate from gender. The only letters in the LGBTQIA2+ acronym that relates to gender is T, for Trans, and I for Intersex, but generally speaking trans people (who I've met, anyway) would prefer to just be known by their preferred gender in casual conversation, and intersex people don't typically advertise that, either (nor should they need to).

    As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?

    You don't have to disclose sexual preference for either of those things, at least not where I'm from.

    If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)

    You say "Okay", and refer to them by their preferred pronoun; it's essentially the only reason it would come up in casual conversation. Again, there's nothing sexual about gender. Gender and sexual identity are completely separate.

    Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)

    Over time, the acronym has evolved to be inclusive of more groups. That's all there is to it. As an asexual person, you're represented by the A (or the +). I have only a few times ever seen a shorter acronym used to specifically exclude some groups, and that shit was shut down pretty quickly by other folks who heard it. If you say "LGBTQIA+", I highly doubt anyone will be offended or feel that you're excluding them. (The + is indeed a general addendum meant to include anyone who is part of the community and wasn't explicitly given a letter.)

    sga@lemmings.worldS interstellar_1@lemmy.blahaj.zoneI 2 Replies Last reply
    6
    • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

      TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?

      I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person's identity.

      Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a "different gender". I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.

      And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.

      Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.

      My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?

      Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my "attire" says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a "personal" conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what "orientation" (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?

      The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?

      I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some "positive discrimination" (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)

      If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)

      Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)

      edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr

      Z This user is from outside of this forum
      Z This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote on last edited by
      #5

      Using they/them by default is already a good start - I would be surprised to learn if neopronouns are a thing at all in languages that don't have gendered pronouns to begin with. they/them is perfectly acceptable to 99+% of people - both cis and LGBT+.

      You can just say LGBT or LGBT+. Lots of others are in use but very, very few people will legitimately get mad at you for picking one over any other.

      If someone specifically tells you to call them a certain thing, you should call them that thing. Otherwise just stick to they/them.

      If someone tells you their sexuality and it is not relevant to you, you have no obligation to ever bring it up again, just as with any form of oversharing.

      And as for why some people share these things even though you may personally find it too revealing - that's just down to personal preference. Different things are important to different people in different ways. Some people might go through their life never giving their gender a single thought. Others might base their life around affirming and fighting for it in various ways. Most people are somewhere in the middle. Everyone has a cause they believe in a lot - for some people, this is that cause. As an "Aero Ace" (a term I had to look up - "aromantic asexual" for those who also haven't encountered it), you're probably pretty predisposed to not care about any of this stuff on any significant level.

      sga@lemmings.worldS witchfire@lemmy.worldW 2 Replies Last reply
      3
      • koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK [email protected]

        Firstly, I think you're conflating gender with sexual identity. Gender isn't covered by any of the LGBTQIA2+ initials; it's important (to some people) to inform someone of upon meeting them, because it usually relates to their preferred pronouns, and if someone appears outwardly male but prefers to be referred to as 'They' (or any other combination of gender + pronoun), that needs to be disclosed. You've probably never felt the need to do this because (as you state) you're male and you identify as male and your outward appearance is male, so I'm going to assume you've never had anyone misgender you, but not everyone is so lucky - or privileged, you might say.

        But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?

        This is just how the English language works. Personally, I've never met anyone who got upset if someone used a gender neutral pronoun (though I understand those people do exist). If you want to make it easy on yourself, just use They/Them for everyone; English just happens to not be too well-equipped for this, and it can cause confusion in some contexts (singular vs. plural, or when trying to single a particular person out of a crowd). Some of the other pronouns that you've probably heard were an attempt to create a singular gender neutral pronoun but none have really stuck in wide use.

        The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information.

        This is likely because you're ace. If you had a sexual interest in someone, you might be interested to know what gender they preferred.

        I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender.

        We don't. This is separate from gender. The only letters in the LGBTQIA2+ acronym that relates to gender is T, for Trans, and I for Intersex, but generally speaking trans people (who I've met, anyway) would prefer to just be known by their preferred gender in casual conversation, and intersex people don't typically advertise that, either (nor should they need to).

        As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?

        You don't have to disclose sexual preference for either of those things, at least not where I'm from.

        If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)

        You say "Okay", and refer to them by their preferred pronoun; it's essentially the only reason it would come up in casual conversation. Again, there's nothing sexual about gender. Gender and sexual identity are completely separate.

        Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)

        Over time, the acronym has evolved to be inclusive of more groups. That's all there is to it. As an asexual person, you're represented by the A (or the +). I have only a few times ever seen a shorter acronym used to specifically exclude some groups, and that shit was shut down pretty quickly by other folks who heard it. If you say "LGBTQIA+", I highly doubt anyone will be offended or feel that you're excluding them. (The + is indeed a general addendum meant to include anyone who is part of the community and wasn't explicitly given a letter.)

        sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
        sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote on last edited by
        #6

        Thank you, you made many things clear. I have kinda used gender and sex kinda interchangably, because in my native tounge, there is no separation. Also, most people LGBTQIA+ representation in media here mostly focused on the sex part. What you refered to as gender in your reply, is what i refered to as "orientation" in my post, mostly because that is how I have understood geneder like that till today - How do you want to be addressed, and for example, how do you dress up.

        You’ve probably never felt the need to do this because (as you state) you’re male and you identify as male and your outward appearance is male

        I want to ask one more thing, I have never asked/thought of my gender. When you say "you identify as male", I do not know what that means, what does it mean to identify as a male or female or something else. As I wrote above, in my native tounge, there is no separation.

        so I’m going to assume you’ve never had anyone misgender you, but not everyone is so lucky - or privileged, you might say.

        As I said, I understand that I am privileged. Though I have been misgendered, mostly because my voice is quite shrill, and people often confuse me of being feminine over phones.

        koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK 1 Reply Last reply
        1
        • 2xsaiko@discuss.tchncs.de2 [email protected]

          Sexual orientation is not part of gender! In which way do you think it is?

          sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
          sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote on last edited by
          #7

          I am sorry, but it kinda because of the cultural non separation of these 2 concepts in my mother tongue. I did explain it a bit more in another comment

          P 2xsaiko@discuss.tchncs.de2 2 Replies Last reply
          1
          • T [email protected]

            To preface all this, this is my nonbinary bisexual person's opinion, not speaking for all LGBT+ people by any means

            My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?

            Some people like labels, some like to just be themselves. As a cultural difference I've noticed Americans like to divide people by different characteristic more, as a general rule, than people from other places.

            I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed).

            Then great, you're already doing well!

            But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?

            I'm absolutely with you, my person, if it was up to me grammatical gender would be totally abolished.

            The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?

            Yes, it shouldn't be something the government cares about, neither should gender. Ideally they shouldn't ask at all, but usually there is a 'prefer not to say' option.

            If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)

            If respecting a non-trans person's gender would be doing the same things, to you, then sure

            Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)

            Even LGBT+ feels a bit unwieldy to me, and yes, the + already includes all the others so the extra letters are for sure unnecessary. I've heard GSM (gender and sexual minorities) as a shorter acronym that doesn't single out any specific identities, that might be better. For sure, I don't like using acronyms with 'queer' in them as some people get offended by that word and an inclusive acronym shouldn't offend people or make them feel 'othered' or 'unusual' for their natural human variation.

            sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
            sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
            [email protected]
            wrote on last edited by
            #8

            thank you, hearing from a person of GSM definitely gives me a better perspective.

            but usually there is a ‘prefer not to say’ option.

            I do not like that option (it kinda feels like hiding a crime or something). But where I live, most of the time, it is just male/female/others. That still feels harsh, and kinda in line of saying all other "gender minorities" but still feels a bit blunt.

            If respecting a non-trans person’s gender would be doing the same things, to you, then sure

            Pardon me, but I did not understand this sentence at all. Can you please elaborate (or eli5) it?

            T 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

              Thank you, you made many things clear. I have kinda used gender and sex kinda interchangably, because in my native tounge, there is no separation. Also, most people LGBTQIA+ representation in media here mostly focused on the sex part. What you refered to as gender in your reply, is what i refered to as "orientation" in my post, mostly because that is how I have understood geneder like that till today - How do you want to be addressed, and for example, how do you dress up.

              You’ve probably never felt the need to do this because (as you state) you’re male and you identify as male and your outward appearance is male

              I want to ask one more thing, I have never asked/thought of my gender. When you say "you identify as male", I do not know what that means, what does it mean to identify as a male or female or something else. As I wrote above, in my native tounge, there is no separation.

              so I’m going to assume you’ve never had anyone misgender you, but not everyone is so lucky - or privileged, you might say.

              As I said, I understand that I am privileged. Though I have been misgendered, mostly because my voice is quite shrill, and people often confuse me of being feminine over phones.

              koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK This user is from outside of this forum
              koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK This user is from outside of this forum
              [email protected]
              wrote on last edited by [email protected]
              #9

              I want to ask one more thing, I have never asked/thought of my gender. When you say “you identify as male”, I do not know what that means, what does it mean to identify as a male or female or something else. As I wrote above, in my native tounge, there is no separation.

              In your original post, you said:

              I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be.

              Which I took to mean that you are biologically male, you consider yourself to be male, and your outward appearance is male. (Apologies if I misinterpreted your meaning.) 'Identify as male' simply means that that is your preferred gender (as in, do you prefer to be thought of / referred to as male or female), whether or not it matches your biology. It's most applicable to trans people, who might be biologically male but identify as female (which we'd refer to as a trans woman, or more concisely, 'a woman'), or vice versa.

              As I said, I understand that I am privileged. Though I have been misgendered, mostly because my voice is quite shrill, and people often confuse me of being feminine over phones.

              I didn't mean to call you out with that comment, I was just using the term you used. 🙂 Wasn't throwing shade. Having a voice that doesn't match your gender identity is a great example of why you might want to tell someone your pronouns the first time you talk to them, though (if appropriate).

              Also, most people LGBTQIA+ representation in media here mostly focused on the sex part.

              LGBTQIA+ relates to sexual preference (mostly), so it makes sense that it's equated to sex.

              I understand it being a difficult concept when your native language doesn't differentiate, though. That's pretty rough, and good on you for trying to get a better understanding of it.

              If it helps with the terminology:

              'Sex' can refer to whether someone is (biologically) a male or female - basically, whether they were born with a penis or a vagina. You typically don't disclose this to someone when meeting them.

              This is separate from gender, or 'preferred gender', or 'gender identity', which refers to what someone wishes to be referred to as. Someone's sex can be female and their gender be male (and we'd refer to that person as a male). This is what you'd answer with if someone asked you, "Are you a girl or a boy?"

              'Sex' can also refer to the physical act of having sex with someone, which in turn relates to the LGBTQIA+ acronym, which describes sexual preference (e.g. do you want to sleep with men or women, or both, or neither, or whatever else). I think this might be where some of the confusion comes from. English is a pretty shitty language to learn, especially as a second language.

              sga@lemmings.worldS 1 Reply Last reply
              1
              • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

                thank you, hearing from a person of GSM definitely gives me a better perspective.

                but usually there is a ‘prefer not to say’ option.

                I do not like that option (it kinda feels like hiding a crime or something). But where I live, most of the time, it is just male/female/others. That still feels harsh, and kinda in line of saying all other "gender minorities" but still feels a bit blunt.

                If respecting a non-trans person’s gender would be doing the same things, to you, then sure

                Pardon me, but I did not understand this sentence at all. Can you please elaborate (or eli5) it?

                T This user is from outside of this forum
                T This user is from outside of this forum
                [email protected]
                wrote on last edited by
                #10

                Pardon me, but I did not understand this sentence at all. Can you please elaborate (or eli5) it?

                Sorry about that! I was basically trying to say that if a trans person tells you their gender, and you then treat them like you would treat a cis person of that gender* (ie, any gendered behaviours that are still in society, you would apply to them - as much as we both want to abolish gender norms), then you're doing great!

                *things that are still gendered in our society include pronoun usage, calling someone gendered terms like brother, niece, etc, bathroom usage, single gender activities, and so in

                I hope that's any more clear, if it's not I apologise!

                sga@lemmings.worldS 1 Reply Last reply
                1
                • Z [email protected]

                  Using they/them by default is already a good start - I would be surprised to learn if neopronouns are a thing at all in languages that don't have gendered pronouns to begin with. they/them is perfectly acceptable to 99+% of people - both cis and LGBT+.

                  You can just say LGBT or LGBT+. Lots of others are in use but very, very few people will legitimately get mad at you for picking one over any other.

                  If someone specifically tells you to call them a certain thing, you should call them that thing. Otherwise just stick to they/them.

                  If someone tells you their sexuality and it is not relevant to you, you have no obligation to ever bring it up again, just as with any form of oversharing.

                  And as for why some people share these things even though you may personally find it too revealing - that's just down to personal preference. Different things are important to different people in different ways. Some people might go through their life never giving their gender a single thought. Others might base their life around affirming and fighting for it in various ways. Most people are somewhere in the middle. Everyone has a cause they believe in a lot - for some people, this is that cause. As an "Aero Ace" (a term I had to look up - "aromantic asexual" for those who also haven't encountered it), you're probably pretty predisposed to not care about any of this stuff on any significant level.

                  sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                  sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
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                  wrote on last edited by
                  #11

                  I learnt the term aero-ace in a jaiden animations vid, where she explained it, and that seemed to match with me. I have not explored my gender or sexuality yet, and have never felt the need to do so

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • T [email protected]

                    Pardon me, but I did not understand this sentence at all. Can you please elaborate (or eli5) it?

                    Sorry about that! I was basically trying to say that if a trans person tells you their gender, and you then treat them like you would treat a cis person of that gender* (ie, any gendered behaviours that are still in society, you would apply to them - as much as we both want to abolish gender norms), then you're doing great!

                    *things that are still gendered in our society include pronoun usage, calling someone gendered terms like brother, niece, etc, bathroom usage, single gender activities, and so in

                    I hope that's any more clear, if it's not I apologise!

                    sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                    sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                    [email protected]
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #12

                    Much more clearer, thanks!

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK [email protected]

                      I want to ask one more thing, I have never asked/thought of my gender. When you say “you identify as male”, I do not know what that means, what does it mean to identify as a male or female or something else. As I wrote above, in my native tounge, there is no separation.

                      In your original post, you said:

                      I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be.

                      Which I took to mean that you are biologically male, you consider yourself to be male, and your outward appearance is male. (Apologies if I misinterpreted your meaning.) 'Identify as male' simply means that that is your preferred gender (as in, do you prefer to be thought of / referred to as male or female), whether or not it matches your biology. It's most applicable to trans people, who might be biologically male but identify as female (which we'd refer to as a trans woman, or more concisely, 'a woman'), or vice versa.

                      As I said, I understand that I am privileged. Though I have been misgendered, mostly because my voice is quite shrill, and people often confuse me of being feminine over phones.

                      I didn't mean to call you out with that comment, I was just using the term you used. 🙂 Wasn't throwing shade. Having a voice that doesn't match your gender identity is a great example of why you might want to tell someone your pronouns the first time you talk to them, though (if appropriate).

                      Also, most people LGBTQIA+ representation in media here mostly focused on the sex part.

                      LGBTQIA+ relates to sexual preference (mostly), so it makes sense that it's equated to sex.

                      I understand it being a difficult concept when your native language doesn't differentiate, though. That's pretty rough, and good on you for trying to get a better understanding of it.

                      If it helps with the terminology:

                      'Sex' can refer to whether someone is (biologically) a male or female - basically, whether they were born with a penis or a vagina. You typically don't disclose this to someone when meeting them.

                      This is separate from gender, or 'preferred gender', or 'gender identity', which refers to what someone wishes to be referred to as. Someone's sex can be female and their gender be male (and we'd refer to that person as a male). This is what you'd answer with if someone asked you, "Are you a girl or a boy?"

                      'Sex' can also refer to the physical act of having sex with someone, which in turn relates to the LGBTQIA+ acronym, which describes sexual preference (e.g. do you want to sleep with men or women, or both, or neither, or whatever else). I think this might be where some of the confusion comes from. English is a pretty shitty language to learn, especially as a second language.

                      sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                      sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                      [email protected]
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #13

                      Wasn’t throwing shade.

                      No shade taken. I was just acknowledging my priviledge. We sometimes forget that we get a lot of things, which we think are natural and everyone has, until you meet people who do not. And it never hurts to be reminded that what you got is something not yet "normal" for everyone.

                      Having a voice that doesn’t match your gender identity is a great example of why you might want to tell someone your pronouns the first time you talk to them, though (if appropriate).

                      I have almost never felt the need to do so, in fact, I do get a bit amused by it. As I said, I do not have a notion of male/female. If someone considers me feminine, I do not feel any different. It maybe a mental thing, or again, a by product of my upbringing.

                      English is a pretty shitty language to learn, especially as a second language.

                      I used to somewhat dislike english for being confusing, but it is effectively my first language. I have read/written English more than any other languages combined (4 others) and also spoken it the most/ 2nd most. I find it good enough. Especially, since it's lingua franca in academia

                      koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

                        TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?

                        I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person's identity.

                        Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a "different gender". I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.

                        And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.

                        Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.

                        My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?

                        Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my "attire" says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a "personal" conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what "orientation" (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?

                        The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?

                        I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some "positive discrimination" (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)

                        If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)

                        Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)

                        edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr

                        G This user is from outside of this forum
                        G This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #14

                        Sorry to do this: If you are unsure if you are an aero ace, just check how many confirmed kills you have with your plane. If you downed 5 or more hostile military planes you are an aero ace, also known as flying ace.

                        sga@lemmings.worldS J 2 Replies Last reply
                        18
                        • G [email protected]

                          Sorry to do this: If you are unsure if you are an aero ace, just check how many confirmed kills you have with your plane. If you downed 5 or more hostile military planes you are an aero ace, also known as flying ace.

                          sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                          sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                          [email protected]
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #15

                          I am sorry to report commander, but I have no kills yet. I am definitely not an ace.

                          S 1 Reply Last reply
                          5
                          • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

                            Wasn’t throwing shade.

                            No shade taken. I was just acknowledging my priviledge. We sometimes forget that we get a lot of things, which we think are natural and everyone has, until you meet people who do not. And it never hurts to be reminded that what you got is something not yet "normal" for everyone.

                            Having a voice that doesn’t match your gender identity is a great example of why you might want to tell someone your pronouns the first time you talk to them, though (if appropriate).

                            I have almost never felt the need to do so, in fact, I do get a bit amused by it. As I said, I do not have a notion of male/female. If someone considers me feminine, I do not feel any different. It maybe a mental thing, or again, a by product of my upbringing.

                            English is a pretty shitty language to learn, especially as a second language.

                            I used to somewhat dislike english for being confusing, but it is effectively my first language. I have read/written English more than any other languages combined (4 others) and also spoken it the most/ 2nd most. I find it good enough. Especially, since it's lingua franca in academia

                            koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK This user is from outside of this forum
                            koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK This user is from outside of this forum
                            [email protected]
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #16

                            I have almost never felt the need to do so, in fact, I do get a bit amused by it. As I said, I do not have a notion of male/female. If someone considers me feminine, I do not feel any different. It maybe a mental thing, or again, a by product of my upbringing.

                            It's more of an issue for trans folks, some of whom feel a strong disassociation with their biological sex. If someone's trying hard to pass as a gender that doesn't match their sex, having someone misgender them feels pretty awful.

                            I used to somewhat dislike english for being confusing, but it is effectively my first language. I have read/written English more than any other languages combined (4 others) and also spoken it the most/ 2nd most. I find it good enough. Especially, since it’s lingua franca in academia

                            Fair enough! For what it's worth, I wouldn't have known you weren't a native English speaker if you hadn't said so yourself (though it did provide useful context around why you were confused about gender vs. sex!)

                            sga@lemmings.worldS 1 Reply Last reply
                            1
                            • koboldcoterie@pawb.socialK [email protected]

                              I have almost never felt the need to do so, in fact, I do get a bit amused by it. As I said, I do not have a notion of male/female. If someone considers me feminine, I do not feel any different. It maybe a mental thing, or again, a by product of my upbringing.

                              It's more of an issue for trans folks, some of whom feel a strong disassociation with their biological sex. If someone's trying hard to pass as a gender that doesn't match their sex, having someone misgender them feels pretty awful.

                              I used to somewhat dislike english for being confusing, but it is effectively my first language. I have read/written English more than any other languages combined (4 others) and also spoken it the most/ 2nd most. I find it good enough. Especially, since it’s lingua franca in academia

                              Fair enough! For what it's worth, I wouldn't have known you weren't a native English speaker if you hadn't said so yourself (though it did provide useful context around why you were confused about gender vs. sex!)

                              sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                              sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                              [email protected]
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #17

                              If someone’s trying hard to pass as a gender that doesn’t match their sex, having someone misgender them feels pretty awful.

                              understandable. I can see that someone who might have past trauma, or something alike, it would only sprinkle salt on wounds. In my case, I am basically a slowpoke.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

                                I am sorry, but it kinda because of the cultural non separation of these 2 concepts in my mother tongue. I did explain it a bit more in another comment

                                P This user is from outside of this forum
                                P This user is from outside of this forum
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                                wrote on last edited by
                                #18

                                There are plenty of people whose first language is English and who have confused, or still confuse, the two things anyway. As you say, it's at least partly cultural. They don't really teach this stuff at school, or at least they didn't when I was there.

                                I was one of the confused people once. Then I learned better (and I'm still learning).

                                I think what's important is that we're willing to learn.

                                sga@lemmings.worldS 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • P [email protected]

                                  There are plenty of people whose first language is English and who have confused, or still confuse, the two things anyway. As you say, it's at least partly cultural. They don't really teach this stuff at school, or at least they didn't when I was there.

                                  I was one of the confused people once. Then I learned better (and I'm still learning).

                                  I think what's important is that we're willing to learn.

                                  sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                                  sga@lemmings.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
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                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #19

                                  I think what’s important is that we’re willing to learn.

                                  (mutilating the legendary quote) "You should keep learning things from other nations. If you stop doing so, your knowledge gets stagnant and stale" - Uncle Iroh

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

                                    I am sorry to report commander, but I have no kills yet. I am definitely not an ace.

                                    S This user is from outside of this forum
                                    S This user is from outside of this forum
                                    [email protected]
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #20

                                    Those are rookie numbers. Gotta pump those numbers up

                                    sga@lemmings.worldS 1 Reply Last reply
                                    2
                                    • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

                                      TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?

                                      I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person's identity.

                                      Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a "different gender". I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.

                                      And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.

                                      Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.

                                      My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?

                                      Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my "attire" says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a "personal" conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what "orientation" (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?

                                      The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?

                                      I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some "positive discrimination" (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)

                                      If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)

                                      Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)

                                      edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr

                                      B This user is from outside of this forum
                                      B This user is from outside of this forum
                                      [email protected]
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #21

                                      Lots of great responses here. I just want to add my own reply to your question “why do we need so many terms?”: Specificity.

                                      Any sufficiently matured field, subject, or activity will naturally accumulate more varied and specific terminology so that discussions around it can be more nuanced.

                                      This applies to literally everything, however specifically in the context of identity and sexuality it is very important for people to be able to express themselves and feel like they have been heard and understood.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      4
                                      • G [email protected]

                                        Sorry to do this: If you are unsure if you are an aero ace, just check how many confirmed kills you have with your plane. If you downed 5 or more hostile military planes you are an aero ace, also known as flying ace.

                                        J This user is from outside of this forum
                                        J This user is from outside of this forum
                                        [email protected]
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #22

                                        It's important to learn your definitions.

                                        Aro ace: Aromantic, asexual.

                                        Aero ace: Shot down five other planes in war while flying a plane.

                                        Arrow ace: Acquired every skill known to man by spending five years on an abandoned island, most of which wasn't actually spent on the island.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        10
                                        • sga@lemmings.worldS [email protected]

                                          I am sorry, but it kinda because of the cultural non separation of these 2 concepts in my mother tongue. I did explain it a bit more in another comment

                                          2xsaiko@discuss.tchncs.de2 This user is from outside of this forum
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                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #23

                                          Hm, where? I only saw you talk about gender vs sex, for which there is no difference in my native language either. And they certainly are closely related to the point where the majority of people identify as the gender corresponding to their sex.

                                          However sexual orientation (such as “straight” or “gay” or “aroace” for example) is an entirely different thing as it describes your attraction to other people.

                                          sga@lemmings.worldS witchfire@lemmy.worldW 2 Replies Last reply
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