Europe goes into daylight saving time despite controversy
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It’s the summer hours that are abnormal though…
Depends what you mean by "abnormal".
It is not "normal" for solar noon to occur ante meridiem in some places, and post meridiem in others. Yet, legacy standard time requires this: the west end of the time zone experiences solar noon at 11:30 in the morning, or even earlier in some cases.
Improved time has the entire time zone experience midday in the PM.
We use improved time for 3/4 of the year; its hard to say that the more common time system is the "abnormal" one. The legacy time system might once have been considered a "standard", but so were 8-track tapes at one point. We have evolved a superior alternative that has become the de facto standard in everything but name.
Legacy time was developed by the robber barons in the late 19th century, to support industry. Improved time is an adjustment to that standard to favor the needs of the worker for rest and recreation. We cannot allow modern oligarchs to keep us on this outdated legacy system.
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Well no, because if you remove DST you'd go for the time zone where noon means the sun is straight up. That's the winter schedule, so you summer evenings get an hour shorter.
If we get rid of DST everybody needs to start work an hour earlier IMHO.
Anything for more light in the winter evening. I generally go to work when it's dark and come home when it's dark. It really fucks up my mental health. I honestly don't know how many more winters I can handle, this was a rough one.
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I do. I can't stand it because where I live it means I will no longer see the sun. Not to even mention how much it sucks ass from a mental standpoint to get out of work and have it be dark. I could not care less if I see a tiny bit of sunlight on my way to work lol. I've had multiple jobs where once ST hits, I'm going to work and coming home in darkness. I literally dont see the sun until the weekend. Imo give me whichever option that maximizes sunlight during most people's free time.
You hate standard time
DST moves the sun an hour later in the day
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I will never understand why people want the time we only use for 3 months to be the time we use for the whole year. I would rather people just be able to admit that December is dark (for the northern hemisphere) and we can do shit at a different time.
Yep, the “standard” time should definitely be what we currently call daylight saving.
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No one is complaining about when we all gain an hours sleep in Autumn
Who are all these people waking up at a fixed time on the clock on a Sunday morning? Some people have to work of course but me working a weekday 9-5, my wake up times on the weekend can vary a huge amount.
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they get by just fine with one.
China spans five geographic time zones and it does cause some pain to those living far away from Beijing. It's not a great system.
Because Beijing should be using Chongqing time, yes, then the offset of clock noon to natural noon would be at most something like +-1.5 hours.
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Summary
Most European countries moved clocks forward one hour on Sunday, marking the start of daylight saving time (DST), a practice increasingly criticized.
Originally introduced during World War I to conserve energy, DST returned during the 1970s oil crisis and now shifts Central European Time to Central European Summer Time.
Despite a 2018 EU consultation where 84% of nearly 4 million respondents supported abolishing DST, implementation stalled due to member state disagreement.
Poland, currently holding the EU presidency, plans informal consultations to revisit the issue amid broader geopolitical priorities.
Ok, how many analogue clocks does everyone have?
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A rose is a rose and time is time. That "extra hour" can be taken any time you want and has nothing to do with changing a clock twice a year. You're going to sleep however mych you want or need to regardless of this construct
I wish I could sleep however much I want or need. That sounds lovely.
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Depends what you mean by "abnormal".
It is not "normal" for solar noon to occur ante meridiem in some places, and post meridiem in others. Yet, legacy standard time requires this: the west end of the time zone experiences solar noon at 11:30 in the morning, or even earlier in some cases.
Improved time has the entire time zone experience midday in the PM.
We use improved time for 3/4 of the year; its hard to say that the more common time system is the "abnormal" one. The legacy time system might once have been considered a "standard", but so were 8-track tapes at one point. We have evolved a superior alternative that has become the de facto standard in everything but name.
Legacy time was developed by the robber barons in the late 19th century, to support industry. Improved time is an adjustment to that standard to favor the needs of the worker for rest and recreation. We cannot allow modern oligarchs to keep us on this outdated legacy system.
I’m really curious why you think that it important that solar noon occurs at or after clock-noon. My only care is that they are close together, it doesn’t matter which is first.
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wdym 3 months? both CET and CEST are used approximately half a year
In North America DST is used from second Sunday of March until first Sunday of November.
This means there are 239 days in DST, and 126 days out of DST in 2025. Close to 2 to 1 ratio.
I know it's different with CEST and CET, and it sucks even more donkeyballs there, when the sun sets around 4PM (instead of 5) regardless.
DST should really be the standard in most places. You want more sunlight in the afternoon, not in the morning.
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I've heard a few complaints today from people irl about having to change their clocks. Not about the time change itself, but having to change the time on clocks. It took me two minutes lol.
My eyes are tired, billy
It's 6 am but is it really
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I’m really curious why you think that it important that solar noon occurs at or after clock-noon. My only care is that they are close together, it doesn’t matter which is first.
Outdoor trades tend to start work around 7am, when noise ordinances are lifted, and knock off a couple hours after midday, to avoid the heat of summer. With midday at 11:30, summer sunrise was three hours before they could even start their work. All those cool morning hours, perfect for hard work, completely wasted, while workers suffer heat exhaustion in the afternoon.
Fortunately, we have only rarely used legacy time in summer in the past hundred years. We've built our legal and industrial infrastructure on the premise that solar noon will occur sometime between 12:30 and 13:30 local time for 8-9 months of the year.
Maintaining that historical expectation with permanent summer time will greatly reduce the transition to a "locked clock".
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Yep, the “standard” time should definitely be what we currently call daylight saving.
I completely agree. Plus, it gives everyone an hour of light that would otherwise be wasted working.
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My eyes are tired, billy
It's 6 am but is it really
Whether it's 5 or 6 or 7, it's too early.
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Summary
Most European countries moved clocks forward one hour on Sunday, marking the start of daylight saving time (DST), a practice increasingly criticized.
Originally introduced during World War I to conserve energy, DST returned during the 1970s oil crisis and now shifts Central European Time to Central European Summer Time.
Despite a 2018 EU consultation where 84% of nearly 4 million respondents supported abolishing DST, implementation stalled due to member state disagreement.
Poland, currently holding the EU presidency, plans informal consultations to revisit the issue amid broader geopolitical priorities.
Trying to make a non issue an issue
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Summary
Most European countries moved clocks forward one hour on Sunday, marking the start of daylight saving time (DST), a practice increasingly criticized.
Originally introduced during World War I to conserve energy, DST returned during the 1970s oil crisis and now shifts Central European Time to Central European Summer Time.
Despite a 2018 EU consultation where 84% of nearly 4 million respondents supported abolishing DST, implementation stalled due to member state disagreement.
Poland, currently holding the EU presidency, plans informal consultations to revisit the issue amid broader geopolitical priorities.
The simple fact is that on the Monday after DST starts, more people have heart attacks and strokes.
Meaning that not going away from it means people will continue to die from it.
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If you like more light in the evening, go to bed late and wake up late. If you like light in the morning, go to bed early and wake up early.
Other way around. If you want a lighter evening, your day has to slide earlier so when you sleep is closer to sunset.
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I’m okay with that plan, although I’m curious why you find it so important.
In any case that’s a problem with the layout of time zones not with DST.
For most of the past 110 years or so since DST was implemented, for 3/4 of the year, we have had solar noon occurring at 13:00 in the center of each time zone. You're already living with it most of the time. We've established school schedules, work schedules, industrial schedules, laws (such as curfews, noise ordinances, parking enforcement) and all sorts of infrastructure on the idea that for 3/4 of the year, there will be one more hour of daylight after 12:00pm than there is before 12:00 pm.
Noise ordinances, for example, were established on the expectation that people should have the opportunity for sleep, and workers should have the opportunity to provide their services. They don't get to work until the protected quiet period ends.
Either approach we take, we are going to upend a wide variety of laws, rules, practices, and customs that have been established over the past century. Adopting legacy standard time is going to impact events over 3/4 of the year; adopting permanent DST is going to impact events over 1/4 of the year.
We should select the system that minimizes disruption. That system is DST.
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In North America DST is used from second Sunday of March until first Sunday of November.
This means there are 239 days in DST, and 126 days out of DST in 2025. Close to 2 to 1 ratio.
I know it's different with CEST and CET, and it sucks even more donkeyballs there, when the sun sets around 4PM (instead of 5) regardless.
DST should really be the standard in most places. You want more sunlight in the afternoon, not in the morning.
I prefer more sunlight in the morning. It's better for your circadian rhythm and it is easier to wake up when it's bright outside.
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Yes but
It makes programming hard
Nobody stops programmers from converting everything into UTC when data and queries go in and back to local time when data comes out.
In fact I worked in a number of systems used across quite a number of time zones (mainly EMEA, but sometimes including all of the US) in Finance and that's exactly how we did it.
Users could work with their local time and meanwhile the system was always internally consistent because at the data level it used a single standard timezone (which has no such thing as daylight savings) for the whole World.
Handling Timezones in systems with a central master datastore for the whole World is a solved problem, it's just that most programmers don't actually work in such systems during their careers so aren't used to it.
