Atheists of Lemmy, what are your thoughts on the Islamic Dilemma?
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Not an athiest but not a Christian or Muslim either. I used to be a Christian. At roughly the minute mark, the presenter claims that the Bible says that god is a Trinity. The video references Matthew 28:18-20 (about baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). While it's true that Matthew says that about baptism, that verse doesn't say that God is a trinity. Trinitarianism is one doctrine some have derived from the Bible but the Bible doesn't contain the concept directly or Christians wouldn't have had so much fighting about it. That's not even getting into the nature of Jesus himself which spawned some humdinger disagreements over time. 🥴
Slightly before that, the presenter claims that the Bible is our only source of truth (paraphrasing ... not going back to get the exact wording). The video doesn't prove that and it's not true that the Bible is our only source of truth.
It also relies on a lot of ignorance of the Quran at the very least on the part of the people watching it. I'm not in a position to speak much to the Quran other than to note that a devout Muslim would likely not find those arguments compelling.
This kind of "apologetics" / evangelical effort aren't edifying or useful to the believer or the unbeliever. To borrow a concept I heard from Christians while I was one ... those who can be argued into converting can be argued out of it. This kind of presentation is the sort of thing unprincipled people use to grift money out of believers in the idea that this will convert unbelievers.
I had the exact same thoughts. And I am also an ex-christian.
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Not an athiest but not a Christian or Muslim either. I used to be a Christian. At roughly the minute mark, the presenter claims that the Bible says that god is a Trinity. The video references Matthew 28:18-20 (about baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). While it's true that Matthew says that about baptism, that verse doesn't say that God is a trinity. Trinitarianism is one doctrine some have derived from the Bible but the Bible doesn't contain the concept directly or Christians wouldn't have had so much fighting about it. That's not even getting into the nature of Jesus himself which spawned some humdinger disagreements over time. 🥴
Slightly before that, the presenter claims that the Bible is our only source of truth (paraphrasing ... not going back to get the exact wording). The video doesn't prove that and it's not true that the Bible is our only source of truth.
It also relies on a lot of ignorance of the Quran at the very least on the part of the people watching it. I'm not in a position to speak much to the Quran other than to note that a devout Muslim would likely not find those arguments compelling.
This kind of "apologetics" / evangelical effort aren't edifying or useful to the believer or the unbeliever. To borrow a concept I heard from Christians while I was one ... those who can be argued into converting can be argued out of it. This kind of presentation is the sort of thing unprincipled people use to grift money out of believers in the idea that this will convert unbelievers.
It doesn't explicitly use the word "trinity" but it does describe God as a three-in-one deal numerous times throughout the old and new testaments.
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It doesn't explicitly use the word "trinity" but it does describe God as a three-in-one deal numerous times throughout the old and new testaments.
Not really keen to get into a theological argument about a sacred text I don’t believe in. However, if you gave a neutrally translated Bible to someone who had never heard of the Trinity, it’s extremely unlikely they would come to Trinitarianism on their own.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::I don't think about it at all.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::wrote on last edited by [email protected]How many hundreds of millions of people have died, and will continue to die, over invisible 'truths' cooked up by liars looking for power?
The bible peddles the 10 commandments. My favorite example is a very simple rule 'from God': Thou shalt not kill. How many have died at the hands of 'protectors of the faith'?
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::Abrahamic religions are the worst, regardless of which variant.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::They don't believe in either so the Dilemma is not a dilemma for them.
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I just skipped through the video to get the gist of the topic.
All I think of is Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings. Both speak of good and evil and magic and miracles.
You could use either set of books to disprove the claims of the other, but it wouldn't get you any closer to understanding the world we live in.
I personally prefer The Magicians (The TV series) than either of the two you mentioned. I like the honesty of how the gods are just evil and fucked up. (Well except that one Human that became a god for a while, and that Demigod child of the Trickster god.)
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::my God is better than your God
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::This has the same energy as Twilight fans arguing who's hotter: Edward Cullen or Jacob Black
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::Islam states that the Quran was literally dictated by an angel and is the direct word of God.
The Quran also states that the Bible was written by human fans of Jesus, who was loved so much his true message about God was forgotten.
I don't think this argument does much to convince anyhow who isn't already of the mind that "the Bible is the sole source of truth in reality", which obviously the majority of the world isn't, (and probably all Muslims).
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I just skipped through the video to get the gist of the topic.
All I think of is Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings. Both speak of good and evil and magic and miracles.
You could use either set of books to disprove the claims of the other, but it wouldn't get you any closer to understanding the world we live in.
Lord of the Rings is clearly superior.
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::Exactly the same as nerds arguing about contradictions in their favorite fiction written by a normal person who doesn't care but is rolling in their money
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Lord of the Rings is clearly superior.
Blasphemer! Prepare to suffer for your crimes against Dumbledore!
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Typically this is a Christian argument used against Islam - but I'm actually curious if this is seen as a valid argument from a secular point of view? (Even if it's not the "best")
Because essentially it's "your holy book contradicts the holy book it claims to be endorsed by", which personally I think I can see working on a secular level, even if you don't actually believe in the Bible either.
::: spoiler spoiler
! Also, full disclosure: Yes, I am a Christian. !<
:::I didn't know there was an Islamic dilemma. Also, I don't care about it any more than I would care about a dilemma in any other religion. Religion is such a cancer in the world, I prefer to keep my mind clear of it.
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This has the same energy as Twilight fans arguing who's hotter: Edward Cullen or Jacob Black
Pretty sure the real answer is Alice; the gays took over the fandom because Kristen Stewart. So Christians and Muslims should defer to ... Wiccans?
