Bad UX is keeping the majority of people away from Lemmy
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You seem to be doing the same? Majority of reddit users are younger than op. People who use old reddit are objectively the minority
Thank you for including sources, this was my point to AnonymousWolf.
I should have said "they may not be the same" as I didn't check either. I stand corrected.
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Thanks for sharing! Very much aligned with what i have in mind... Only difference would be to narrow down to 1 or 2 (if at all) on the landing screen - maybe all other options are under a "advanced user? Click here to expand server selection" or something like that...
I agree, but people (read: instance owners) might disagree who gets to be seen up top and who won't make that cut.
It's a tough dilemma in itself, I will say. In the end, I think we should move this part of the joining experience until after new users are familar with the software.
So new users land at "lemmy.noob" or something, and when they are ready to spread their wings, they can choose the things I showed above to go and find the right home for them.
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it feels like old reddit
Wait, when did that become a bad thing? I exclusively browsed old.reddit.com because the new layout is a fucking abomination.
i came here to say the same thing! if people actually genuinely like the new reddit ui, those people might just want and need different things out of a website than we do, and trying to onboard them might be a fool's errand. not to be a gatekeeper, i'd love if everyone quit the corporate web, but a lot of the things people complain about here like the ui and the decentrilization are why i'm here (in my case mbin) and not there to begin with
same thing with mastodon, people still rail against it's ui but the ui was a big reason i even made a mastodon long before twitter was bought out, back when they first tried to phase out the chronological timeline
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join-lemmy.org already has this in a way:
The problem here is that those are filters, and the newcomer will usually still be faced with several options, which will still make them scratch their head.
A wizard is a good idea, with simple questions, rather than filter buttons.
But it needs to end up telling you "here you go, this is the one you want!", giving you just a single instance. Doesn't matter that multiple will probably match the answers given - then just pick one at random. Chances are, they will be equally happy on either, and if not, well, it isn't very hard to switch to a new instance later on, when they have become regular Lemmists.
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What would prevent the same happening in the next wave of rats jumping ship? They don't know anything about the servers or their niches, so they pick whatever. Listing all the servers and their missions is a good start for those motivated to join, but for those more on the fence, how do we ease the transition?
I personally see three big issues with getting new users to Lemmy use and stat on Lemmy:
- knowing about it: It is a matter of time before Reddit bans linking to Lemmy. Either by outright preventing their discussion via shadow deletes or full deletes. join-lemmy.org would be well served by purchasing ads on Google and on Bing
- join-lemmy ux needs to be improved: this goes to your point and I fully agree that there needs to be a better onboarding experience. I am a fairly technical guy and even I had trouble understanding the major concepts behind Lemmy. Many of these concepts aren't terribly important to a new user though. At least at first.
- more and better content: this is fortunately getting better but we're not there yet
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Why are you passing off the onus of proof to me or others in this thread? It's your argument.
Just google 'Good UX principles' and you'll see Lemmy breaks so many of them
No thanks, I'm also a decades long IT Professional and I'm not going to do that. It's your argument so your burden of proof.
Lemmy breaks basic UX principles the UX is bad on multiple levels
Again, please feel free to cite specific examples.
Fine, here is how Lemmy breaks the six of the 7 UX principles
User-Centricity – Lemmy often prioritizes federation and technical features over intuitive user experience. The interface can feel clunky, and onboarding isn't always smooth for new users unfamiliar with the federated model.
Consistency – The UI varies significantly across different Lemmy instances, which can create an inconsistent experience. Some instances modify themes or layouts, making navigation different depending on where you are.
Hierarchy – Unlike Reddit, Lemmy’s ranking algorithms sometimes don’t surface the most relevant or popular posts effectively. Sorting by hot, top, or new doesn’t always work intuitively, leading to lower-quality content appearing before high-quality discussions.
Context – Lemmy’s UI sometimes fails to provide clear context, If a post originates from another instance, clicking on it might not always take you where you expect. Sometimes, users have to manually navigate to the original instance to see all interactions, which breaks contextual continuity.
User Control – Here it's great, users have a lot of control, it might just cost effort to figure out
Accessibility – Lemmy’s UI and design choices can be less accessible, with contrast issues, and mobile usability problems compared to mainstream platforms. Many non tech savvy people are overwhelmed and won't stay.
Usability – Lemmy can be confusing for new users, especially those unfamiliar with federated platforms. The sign-up process, navigation, and feature discoverability could be much smoother.
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It's not difficult though. They just can't be arsed and are making excuses for being comfortable and lazy. If there was a $100 million marketing budget and their favourite celebrity was here, they'd sit an hour long entrance exam. The best we can do is make it fun enough here that people want to comment.
We should try to do both, give a good UX and make it fun.
Everyone benefits from good UX
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Greenleaf is pretty massively exaggerating about the extent of defederation, as only a handful ever get defederated regularly, certainly not enough to call it 'wars'.
As for UX, there's definitely room for lots of improvements, especially in making it easier to explore another instances local communities from within your own insinstancethout explicitly subbing to them all.
But I don't think the very concept of different instances is truly a barrier or bad UX, that other user is just giving lazy excuses for not switching away from Reddit.
I specifically remember looking up tables of who defederates from who and what instances allow NSFW or downvoting because this was an issue among some of the top instances back then.
I ended up making 4 different accounts over 2 months until I landed on a server I'm happy with. That will never be acceptable to any normal user.
Every time someone brings up these issues, people here downplay them like you are doing it right now and nothing is ever done about it.
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join-lemmy.org already has this in a way:
Join-lemmy suggests outdated and defederated instances: https://lemmy.world/post/24220536
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Thanks for sharing! Very much aligned with what i have in mind... Only difference would be to narrow down to 1 or 2 (if at all) on the landing screen - maybe all other options are under a "advanced user? Click here to expand server selection" or something like that...
Join-lemmy suggests outdated and defederated instances: https://lemmy.world/post/24220536
I usually go with https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37336391
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This reddit post likely has tens if not hundreds of thousands of views, look at the top comment.
Lemmy is losing so many potential new users because the UX sucks for the vast majority of people.
What can we do?
Someone advocating for bells and whistles will get eaten alive here. Too many people would rather read their feed on a git terminal. The pushback would be worse than the community drama!
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There are aspects that could be better, sure. I think communities should be like sets of posts, subject to unions, conjuctions, and other set operations. Then you wouldnt have the issue of 5 versions of c/memes, they could be virtually joined into one memes community at the user level (and the user can filter out instances icon unities risers they don't like of course). Moderation could be decoupled from communities and made a broader service that users choose to interact with, agreeing to a level of moderation comfortable for their experience.
But also, put me in the group that thinks lemmy should stay small. Corpo social has convinced us that a single big room with every idiot and literally their mother screaming into it is how the internet should be and it isn't. We can go back to smaller, focused online communities that don't openly invite everyone to come in and fight.
Centralization tendencies are all rooted in power and control. We need to fragment more.
they could be virtually joined into one memes community at the user level
Good luck with !politics from LW, hexbear and feddit.org colliding
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Fine, here is how Lemmy breaks the six of the 7 UX principles
User-Centricity – Lemmy often prioritizes federation and technical features over intuitive user experience. The interface can feel clunky, and onboarding isn't always smooth for new users unfamiliar with the federated model.
Consistency – The UI varies significantly across different Lemmy instances, which can create an inconsistent experience. Some instances modify themes or layouts, making navigation different depending on where you are.
Hierarchy – Unlike Reddit, Lemmy’s ranking algorithms sometimes don’t surface the most relevant or popular posts effectively. Sorting by hot, top, or new doesn’t always work intuitively, leading to lower-quality content appearing before high-quality discussions.
Context – Lemmy’s UI sometimes fails to provide clear context, If a post originates from another instance, clicking on it might not always take you where you expect. Sometimes, users have to manually navigate to the original instance to see all interactions, which breaks contextual continuity.
User Control – Here it's great, users have a lot of control, it might just cost effort to figure out
Accessibility – Lemmy’s UI and design choices can be less accessible, with contrast issues, and mobile usability problems compared to mainstream platforms. Many non tech savvy people are overwhelmed and won't stay.
Usability – Lemmy can be confusing for new users, especially those unfamiliar with federated platforms. The sign-up process, navigation, and feature discoverability could be much smoother.
Nice job articulating your arguments. Now that you've explained your stance, it can foster better discussion.
Since this explanation is so far down the thread, I suggest editing one of your more top level comments to include these points for better engagement.
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This reddit post likely has tens if not hundreds of thousands of views, look at the top comment.
Lemmy is losing so many potential new users because the UX sucks for the vast majority of people.
What can we do?
I use the Boost app for Lemmy so it basically feels exactly like the ideal Reddit experience felt back then, which is fantastic.
As for being put off, the only thing that really bothers me is the extreme hatred for Windows and the deepthroating of Linux. It's creepy.
Like, I love Linux and use it for many things alongside Windows, but I don't get obsessively weird about it to the point of creating memes or going out of my way to tell people why they're wrong for using one over the other, you know?
If that were toned down I'd certainly feel a little more relaxed, but on the whole the Lemmy experience has been lovely
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The reddit concept of subreddits also doesn't work well with federation IMO (at least no Lemmy's implementation).
Want to talk about video games? Well, there's no /r/games, instead there are bunch of different /c/games on different servers with varying amounts of activity. You basically gotta make the "pick a server" decision again whenever you post something. If you make the wrong choice, your post might not get seen by anyone, and even if you post to the biggest sub, you'll be missing out on eyeballs from people on other servers who aren't subscribed to that instance for whatever reason.
For example, lemmy.ml/c/linux_gaming and lemmy.world/c/linux_gaming have around the same number of subscribers. Should I post to both? Maybe the same people subscribe to both, so that's pointless? Or maybe I'll miss out on a lot of discussion if I post only to one? There's no way for me to know.
For me, it makes Lemmy less useful than reddit for asking really niche questions and getting useful answers. For posting comments on whatever pops up in my feed though, it works great.
I don't have any good solutions to this, and I'm sure it has been considered already. When I first joined, I remembered seeing people bring this same issue up, but it doesn't seem like it went anywhere? (Or maybe it did?)
For example, lemmy.ml/c/linux_gaming and lemmy.world/c/linux_gaming have around the same number of subscribers. Should I post to both? Maybe the same people subscribe to both, so that’s pointless?
.ml and world don't really share the same views and vibes
it doesn’t seem like it went anywhere?
Some communities consolidated. Electric cars did a few weeks ago. Cooking communities back in the days.
Some communities prefer to stay on their own.
[email protected] is trying to solve that issue, but regularly posting "the" community on a topic. But you can't prevent everyone to create new communities, the same way 90% of the subreddits are probably empty with a mssing mod
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Potential hot take: Do we even want the majority of people here?
It would be nice to have thriving communities for niche things. That can only really happen when there's decent numbers though. I do understand the hesitation though.
A much larger userbase will bring its own problems for instance admins, where I'm sure it'll start turning into full-time jobs to keep the lights on.
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Man. You just gave me an idea (which would matter if I wasn’t a complete idiot).
Instead of servers that all attempt to be a sort of clone of Reddit, servers could focus on content similar to the way subreddits work.
So you’d join any one of these servers and federate with other servers just like now, only content would be focused between servers.
Example:
This server is a games server. It has /c/games, /c/fallout, /c/vintagegaming, etc.
This server will focus on news and politics. It has /c/worldnews, /c/marketnews, etc.
Sure, it would still have the issue of being fractured, but it would narrow it down so much that it would be more appealing and easier to navigate.
It’s probably too late for that.
Ultimately, I’m happy with the fediverse. Algorithms aren’t dictating what I see. There’s no profit incentive that will lead to bad decisions, so when bad decisions are made, folks will talk about it and come to a solution.
I miss old Reddit, but it’s gone.
This server is a games server. It has /c/games, /c/fallout, /c/vintagegaming, etc.
https://programming.dev/ is for programming
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/ hosts a lot of queer communities
I prefer [email protected] to the [email protected]
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That’s what that Star Trek server did.
The problem with that is that you need to make a user on one of those servers. Do you make it on the politics one, or the games one? What happens 3 months later when you realize the server you picked on a whim is full of assholes and gets defederated?
Do you think an average user at that point would move their subscriptions to a new account or will they get annoyed at the concept?
The problem with that is that you need to make a user on one of those servers.
Why would you? The communities are accessible from every federated instance
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Potential hot take: Do we even want the majority of people here?
Eternal September.
I still recall the digg migration.
Sort of a hypocrite through cause I'm part of the Reddit 3rd Party API migration...
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I use the Boost app for Lemmy so it basically feels exactly like the ideal Reddit experience felt back then, which is fantastic.
As for being put off, the only thing that really bothers me is the extreme hatred for Windows and the deepthroating of Linux. It's creepy.
Like, I love Linux and use it for many things alongside Windows, but I don't get obsessively weird about it to the point of creating memes or going out of my way to tell people why they're wrong for using one over the other, you know?
If that were toned down I'd certainly feel a little more relaxed, but on the whole the Lemmy experience has been lovely
I use eternity, used infinity beforehand so it basically felt like no change when migrating (eternity is a lemmy fork of infinity)
