Criminalising Online Sex Work: „This law will have international implications far beyond Sweden“
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The sex worker is doing something entirely legal. It's up to the system to protect their right to do that while also protecting them from predation. That's the thought, anyway.
Respectfully no it's not.
The thought is to ensure that culpability sits with the buyer and not the seller. By criminalising the buyer the thinking is that the poor victim forced into sex work should not receive any punishment. Which is fine if the person was forced into it/trafficked but it's not OK if the person chose to do it of their own free will.
The Swedish model is at its heart paternalistic - it denies people the right to choose to do sex work because the state doesn't believe a person is capable of making that choice, they can only be coerced into it.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]I have had to clarify this a couple of times now in this thread but what I wrote is not my personal stance. It is what the stated intention is. That doesn't make it right or effective.
All my my comment was intended to do, was to add context to a discussion about a society that I live in. I did not intend to put my personal stamp of approval on the consequences of that societal context.
I do personally believe that, assuming the stated intention is true, the law hasn't done what was meant to be achieved perfectly and that it should be discussed whether there is something that can be done to better the situation.
We have a few moralistic laws in Sweden that at the very least need more debate. The laws around sex work are definitely on that list imo.
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The measure of harm is as follows: if any persons involved in the process feel that there is harm in it, however slight, then there is harm.
I'd say that'd work well
That's not a measure.
If two people involved in a process feel that the other is harming them, then you need to weigh one harm against another. Similarly, if both an action and a lack of action cause harm you need to know what causes most harm.
I mean, if we stop beating around the bush and cut the socratic bullshit, the point is this: in all political action there are multiple interests that often, if not always, have conflicting positions and perceive the results of that action differently. The idea of the entire system is that a representative govenrment controlled by checks and balances will broadly align their choices with the interest of the general public, or at least do so more consistently than the available alternatives.
You can't measure harm objectively. That's not a thing. The world isn't made of discrete actions where each either harms or doesn't harm. It's a web of interconnected interpretations, preferences, interests and benefits. Some are physical, others economic or moral. There isn't an equivalence between them and there isn't an objectively optimal solution. That's the entire point of politics in the first place.
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Almost always something "bad" happens though, someone is harmed... Someone rapes, you jail that person -> the rapist is harmed. Is it a bad process? Of course not.
It's not about not harming anyone, it's about harming the right people. Who we harm in what case is what almost all political discourse is about.
I get what you're going for, but as presented this is a terrible take, or at least a poorly worded one. Systemic harm isn't a zero sum game. It's not about putting the harm on the bad people, it's about reducing the harm of the system overall without ever crossing the basic ground rules and limitations of the system in the process.
Not all harm to "the right people" is justified and it's extremely difficult to determine the limitations around that. You are right that deciding what interests, legitimate or not, to affect when making a decision is the entire point of politics, though.
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Meanwhile in Belgium: Belgium's sex workers get maternity leave and pensions under world-first law
Under a new law in Belgium - the first of its kind in the world - [...] Sex workers will be entitled to official employment contracts, health insurance, pensions, maternity leave and sick days. Essentially, it will be treated like any other job.
Sex work was decriminalised in Belgium in 2022 and is legal in several countries including Germany, Greece, the Netherlands and Turkey.
I hate the fact that there's sexually frustrated people who are trying to create laws regarding sexuality.
"I'm not happy until you're not happy."
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That's not a measure.
If two people involved in a process feel that the other is harming them, then you need to weigh one harm against another. Similarly, if both an action and a lack of action cause harm you need to know what causes most harm.
I mean, if we stop beating around the bush and cut the socratic bullshit, the point is this: in all political action there are multiple interests that often, if not always, have conflicting positions and perceive the results of that action differently. The idea of the entire system is that a representative govenrment controlled by checks and balances will broadly align their choices with the interest of the general public, or at least do so more consistently than the available alternatives.
You can't measure harm objectively. That's not a thing. The world isn't made of discrete actions where each either harms or doesn't harm. It's a web of interconnected interpretations, preferences, interests and benefits. Some are physical, others economic or moral. There isn't an equivalence between them and there isn't an objectively optimal solution. That's the entire point of politics in the first place.
We're not looking for a generalised measure of harm - just one good enough for safe sex work. For which my suggestion works, as it is basically equivalent to consent.
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IDK where this fixation in regulating other people's sexual life comes from, I assume it's from the Middle-east religions?
When asked the question "who is the victim in this supposed crime?" they will tell you it's the exploited women (is there male prostitution? IDK), but those are supposed victims (even if 99.99% of prostitutes were forced into it, you'd still have to prove exploitation in each specific case - that's how justice works in every other matter except this one). They won't be able to explain (if not with, often made-up, statistical arguments) why they don't treat women (and men) that are exploited in different businesses the same way (think, migrants forced to work in slavelike conditions in agriculture).
The sad truth is, those moralists are just more interested in dictating other people's sexual behaviour than they are interested in human rights.
It's worth mentioning that, besides the various semi-bans on prostitution (which do irritate me, but whom - in all honesty - I can live with), this unhealthy sexual fixation of our societies is what gifts us the marginalization (when it's not persecution) of LGBT people.
I assume it’s from the Middle-east religions?
Your assumption is both false and seems racist. How the heck do you get the idea that Swedish sexual morals would be defined by people thousands of kilometres away?
Sweden has a long lasting history of being more strict around alocohol, drugs and prostitution. Sexual morals in Europe are predominantly shaped by the dominant christian church, be it catholic or protestant. Both the catholic and protestants are their own makings of Europe and during the crusades European Christians often slaughtered orthodox Christian.
Muslim countries have been more progressive on issues such as abortions and reproductive healthcare and partly seen a regression since the christian colonizers. Prostitution has always been illegal under Muslim law, but it also has been illegal in Christian Europe and legality is more the exception than the rule even today. Again the idea that this would somehow be the "fault" of "Middle-east religions" is absurd. This is some 1500 years "home made" European stances.
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Sorry, maybe I was being unclear (while I'm quite good at English, I do realise that "being sympathetic" has a different meaning than I intended).
I do not necessarily think it is the correct model. There are a lot of valid opinions on how to do it, and I do lean more towards well regulated legalisation. But I understand the thinking that made the system what it is. I see the points that favour it. That said, I also see the points that disfavour the current law.
I do think it's healthy to have a discussion about it, and I think Sweden does need to have that discussion. We need to have a discussion about weed too, for example.
It's OK, I understood that you were trying to explain it rather than justify it.
However the part I'm pushing back on is how you are characterising the thinking this new law, and the existing Swedish sex work laws are based on. The starting premise needs to go one further step back into the basis of the original Swedish model laws.
You say that "I understand the thinking that made the system what it is" (above) and "I can only say that such a thing wouldn't be in the spirit of current legal thinking on the subject." (2 posts up where "thing" is referencing "why there can't be a regulated market for digital adult services.")
But you fail to state that **the initial premise that the system is based on is that the Swedish state does not consider it possible for an adult to give consent to sex work. **
It's the short answer to "why can't there be a regulated market" - the answer is that in the view of Swedish model proponents sex-work cannot be consented to and is therefore treated in the same light as rape/abuse.
This is a position that the proponents of the Swedish model keep ducking and weaving to avoid admitting. The pseudo science it built its claims on have not held up to scrutiny.
The premise is flawed, thus the laws built on a flawed premise may be internally consisten, but that doesn't make them rational.
Unless of course we don't believe in bodily autonomy in which case then sure, the state had better start criminalising unprotected sex, skiing, hang gliding, bungee jumping, and anything else that might harm us.
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Despite Sweden's great international PR, they have extremely harsh drug laws and wildly restrictive alcohol laws. They very much like to police what consenting adults do in private.
While exporting one of the largest Vodka brands in the world (Absolut)
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The measure of harm is as follows: if any persons involved in the process feel that there is harm in it, however slight, then there is harm.
I'd say that'd work well
There is plenty of people ignorant or in denial about harming themselves or being harmed. That is usually the stage where drug addicts are at before they realize their addiction as such.
Also it is very much possible to groom people who are legally of age into things where they think they are making the decision by themselves and from their own will, but actually they are manipulated and subjected to harm.
On the flip side there is also many situations where people claim to be harmed but actually are not and there is situations were people from the outside think to see harm or lack of harm and it not being true to the reality of the person affected.
It is difficult to navigate and there is no simple answers or measures to it.
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the rationale behind the original law is that sex work is overwhelmingly done by people who are being coerced and/or trafficked, and the reasoning behind this new law is that trafficking is also a big problem online. sanctioning a market, the argument goes, would invite rent-seeking traffickers like andrew tate.
That answers my question i guess.
Regulation seems like a better answer to me. A licensing system that ensures workers have agency and access to support to avoid pimps and so on.
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It's OK, I understood that you were trying to explain it rather than justify it.
However the part I'm pushing back on is how you are characterising the thinking this new law, and the existing Swedish sex work laws are based on. The starting premise needs to go one further step back into the basis of the original Swedish model laws.
You say that "I understand the thinking that made the system what it is" (above) and "I can only say that such a thing wouldn't be in the spirit of current legal thinking on the subject." (2 posts up where "thing" is referencing "why there can't be a regulated market for digital adult services.")
But you fail to state that **the initial premise that the system is based on is that the Swedish state does not consider it possible for an adult to give consent to sex work. **
It's the short answer to "why can't there be a regulated market" - the answer is that in the view of Swedish model proponents sex-work cannot be consented to and is therefore treated in the same light as rape/abuse.
This is a position that the proponents of the Swedish model keep ducking and weaving to avoid admitting. The pseudo science it built its claims on have not held up to scrutiny.
The premise is flawed, thus the laws built on a flawed premise may be internally consisten, but that doesn't make them rational.
Unless of course we don't believe in bodily autonomy in which case then sure, the state had better start criminalising unprotected sex, skiing, hang gliding, bungee jumping, and anything else that might harm us.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Again, I understand what you're saying. I am talking about stated intention as far as the discussion goes. That people cannot consent in a situation where money changes hands can absolutely be interpreted as part of the foundation but my personal thought on that is more that it is due to negligence.
In effect, it is irrelevant to the proponents of this model whether or not consent can be given.
Does that make it better? No, not at all, and I definitely think that those who consider the legal construction to be sound should have to discuss that point as well.
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Gonna have an unpopular take here, but pornography and sex work under our current system shouldn't be celebrated as a "bastion of freedom", given how it's selling access to one's body and sexuality as a product. Even if they agree to it consensually, the choice happens in a world where money decides what people can or can't do, if one is going to survive or not. This makes the concept of "real consent" complicated, because the need of money, much like the need of food or essential goods can force people into doings they wouldn't freely choose if survival wasn't on the line.
Given this, one could definitely consider it commodified rape - it's not necessarily violent like forced rape, but it's still shaped by money, power, and pressure in a system where people's bodies get turned into things to be bought.
The law does suck ass and shouldn't be supported though, the issue stems with a system where our survival depends on money (with selling your body being a way to get by) and not individual morals. I fully agree with Yidit when he says that it'll just cause sex work to become more dangerous by moving it underground.
I wholeheartedly agree. Especially with the problems of objectification of people, in particular women, having gotten worse again, we should be very careful to assume everything involving a person of legal age to undress for someone else without direct physical threat to be automatically good or liberating.
On the contrary being able to maintain privacy over your body can be an expression of much more freedom as you liberated yourself from objectification.
Irrespective of that these aren't issues that can be tackled through laws like this. Better legal avenues would be banning of sexualized ads, banning of advertisment for cosmetics, cosmetic surgery and the like to minors and the like.
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I have had to clarify this a couple of times now in this thread but what I wrote is not my personal stance. It is what the stated intention is. That doesn't make it right or effective.
All my my comment was intended to do, was to add context to a discussion about a society that I live in. I did not intend to put my personal stamp of approval on the consequences of that societal context.
I do personally believe that, assuming the stated intention is true, the law hasn't done what was meant to be achieved perfectly and that it should be discussed whether there is something that can be done to better the situation.
We have a few moralistic laws in Sweden that at the very least need more debate. The laws around sex work are definitely on that list imo.
I have had to clarify this a couple of times now in this thread but what I wrote is not my personal stance. It is what the stated intention is. That doesn't make it right or effective.
As per my other reply, that was understood.
I do personally believe that, assuming the stated intention is true, the law hasn't done what was meant to be achieved perfectly and that it should be discussed whether there is something that can be done to better the situation.
Again, as per other (long) reply, the big problem is the "intention" you are portraying is not actually consistent with both the speeches made when the original laws were passed and any reasonable reading of the law.
The intention is to abolish sex work because in the minds of the framers it is not possible for an adult to consent to it.
I'm not upset with you for trying to improve understanding. I'd however implore you to consider how taking agency away from people, telling them they are not capable of making a decision about themselves and their body is morally and ethically flawed.
The justification about it stopping trafficking has not held up to analysis, criminals continue to do crime. It's guys like the one in the article and other men & women who pay the price for someone to have a righteous middle class glow.
Strong social welfare systems (like Sweden has) help prevent people doing it from desperation - so buttress those if there's a shortcoming. Strong regulation of migration prevents trafficking before we even get to regulating the industry. Those are things that peer reviewed papers have shown to work.
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"I'm not happy until you're not happy."
"Puritanism Is the Haunting Fear That Someone, Somewhere, May Be Happy"
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I have had to clarify this a couple of times now in this thread but what I wrote is not my personal stance. It is what the stated intention is. That doesn't make it right or effective.
As per my other reply, that was understood.
I do personally believe that, assuming the stated intention is true, the law hasn't done what was meant to be achieved perfectly and that it should be discussed whether there is something that can be done to better the situation.
Again, as per other (long) reply, the big problem is the "intention" you are portraying is not actually consistent with both the speeches made when the original laws were passed and any reasonable reading of the law.
The intention is to abolish sex work because in the minds of the framers it is not possible for an adult to consent to it.
I'm not upset with you for trying to improve understanding. I'd however implore you to consider how taking agency away from people, telling them they are not capable of making a decision about themselves and their body is morally and ethically flawed.
The justification about it stopping trafficking has not held up to analysis, criminals continue to do crime. It's guys like the one in the article and other men & women who pay the price for someone to have a righteous middle class glow.
Strong social welfare systems (like Sweden has) help prevent people doing it from desperation - so buttress those if there's a shortcoming. Strong regulation of migration prevents trafficking before we even get to regulating the industry. Those are things that peer reviewed papers have shown to work.
You do keep saying that you understand but you also implore me to consider how taking agency away from people, telling them they are not capable of making a decision about themselves and their body is morally and ethically flawed.
Something which I've never said that I personally haven't. So I think we're closer in personal belief on the issue than we maybe assume we are.
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I assume it’s from the Middle-east religions?
Your assumption is both false and seems racist. How the heck do you get the idea that Swedish sexual morals would be defined by people thousands of kilometres away?
Sweden has a long lasting history of being more strict around alocohol, drugs and prostitution. Sexual morals in Europe are predominantly shaped by the dominant christian church, be it catholic or protestant. Both the catholic and protestants are their own makings of Europe and during the crusades European Christians often slaughtered orthodox Christian.
Muslim countries have been more progressive on issues such as abortions and reproductive healthcare and partly seen a regression since the christian colonizers. Prostitution has always been illegal under Muslim law, but it also has been illegal in Christian Europe and legality is more the exception than the rule even today. Again the idea that this would somehow be the "fault" of "Middle-east religions" is absurd. This is some 1500 years "home made" European stances.
I assume it’s from the Middle-east religions?
How the heck do you get the idea that Swedish sexual morals would be defined by people thousands of kilometres away?
I think that's a reference to the 3 Abrahamic religions all of which originated in the Middle East - and of those Christianity most certainly is shaping the morals of Sweden (or at the least certainly has in the past)
(Judaism, Christianity and Islam being the "big 3 abrahamic" - Zoroastrianism & Bahai aren't really in the same category worldwide and aren't Abrahamic as far as I am aware)
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cross-posted from: https://feddit.org/post/12433603
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Not sure I disagree with this proposal. This is wierd to me though. You can buy pre-recorded stuff. But not live stuff. Oh well.
So holding a poll of what to record and then selling that would be fine, I guess.
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Meanwhile in Belgium: Belgium's sex workers get maternity leave and pensions under world-first law
Under a new law in Belgium - the first of its kind in the world - [...] Sex workers will be entitled to official employment contracts, health insurance, pensions, maternity leave and sick days. Essentially, it will be treated like any other job.
Sex work was decriminalised in Belgium in 2022 and is legal in several countries including Germany, Greece, the Netherlands and Turkey.
I hate the fact that there's sexually frustrated people who are trying to create laws regarding sexuality.
What you hate is organized religion. Hate the source, not the symptom of that infection.
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That answers my question i guess.
Regulation seems like a better answer to me. A licensing system that ensures workers have agency and access to support to avoid pimps and so on.
that's if you want to acknowledge that human beings do this of their own free will, which sweden does not. our drug policy is the same.
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What you hate is organized religion. Hate the source, not the symptom of that infection.
Very correct, In most cases at least.
I just want to make sure nobody gives them a pass because of their religion, which has no place in politics anyways.
