There are probably a lot of Russians who fled to Germany after WWII only to end up in Huntsville, Al with a 9 year gap in their resume starting in 1941..., right?
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Well if you're saying he was in paperclip, paperclip has been mostly declassified. You can look him up in the rolls here. Not a lot of Russian names on that list, but there might be a few.
Spakovsky or Shpakovskii isn’t in there, but I wouldn’t have expected a sociologist who had been out of work in his field for over a decade to be paper clipped.
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It might not have been your intention, but it just really rubs me the wrong way to hear anybody try and paint this monster in any kind of positive light.
Von Braun was a Nazi and likely committed war crimes, most likely the usage of forced labour. But ultimately he himself did not seem to hold the Nazi ideology that close to heart. He was especially alienated after his arrest by the Gestapo.
The man lacked principles, and seemed fine with using slave labour as long as he could play rocketman. A shitstain, sure. Nonetheless, he doesn't appear to have held any (strong) racial prejudices, afaik not even antisemitism or something.
What I was pointing out is that the shitstains in Alabama were even more racist than the former Nazi immigrants were. So even if Hans turned out to be a racist shitstain, that might not necessarily be because his dad was; it might also be caused by the racists that were around during his upbringing.
I'm not sure what that citation you mentioned contains, but the context it's used in makes it a little ambiguous:
Appealing to the authorities to reclaim property that people believed was unlawfully taken by local officials in the weeks right after the war was also dangerous. After all, investigations would ensue, which could backfire on those who had sought justice from the state. When F. Borisevich from Slutsk (eastern Belorussia) wrote a letter to Ponomarenko, complaining that NKVD officers had taken several of her possessions, among them money and clothes, the Slutsk authorities began to look into the issue. They found out that Borisevich’s husband had been arrested in 1937 and sentenced to forced labor. During the war, Borisevich had shared a house with two local policemen—one of them her grandson, who stole from “partisan and Jewish families.” Slutsk authorities concluded that she had acquired most of her possessions unlawfully during the war, and they decided to pass the case on to a higher court
So either dad did steal from partisans or Jews, or he was merely tried for doing so after seeking justice from authorities. The timeline is weird though, when would this case have taken place? In 1945 he had already left for Germany, so how was he tried by the Soviets? Or was he tried in his absence? Or is that citation referring to a different person?
Spakovsky ended up in Huntsville, likely to join the rest of the Germans who went there. He was a sociologist, not a rocket scientist, so maybe not a priority for operation Paperclip or something.
https://time.com/archive/6935350/the-rocket-mans-dark-side/
For reasons best known to von Braun, who held the rank of colonel in the dreaded Nazi SS, the prisoners were ordered to turn their backs whenever he came into view. Those caught stealing glances at him were hung. One survivor recalled that von Braun, after inspecting a rocket component, charged, “That is clear sabotage.” His unquestioned judgment resulted in eleven men being hanged on the spot. Says Gehrels, “von Braun was directly involved in hangings.”
It seems kinda difficult to easily buy the rosy narrative of von Braun, but also be so skeptical that something seems off about Spakovsky's missing 9 years. The footnote cites his report as a similar case, not the case cited in the text. So does that make him similar to the accused woman? Possibly similar to the woman's grandson who had been a collaborator and the reason she was accused? If Ia A Shpakovskii in the case is actually Anatolli Ignatevich Shpakovskii, it would be interesting to know what he was accused of.
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It’s also absolutely ridiculous to call all White emigres Nazis.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I see what you mean (though "explicitly" needs a citation) but not all so-called white emigres were members of the White Movement; "white emigre" is a misnomer. For example Trotsky could theoretically be called a white emigre, and less tenuously anyone fleeing the civil war would count.
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Read through as well, it does seem like OP is wrong. Can't assume all anti-Communists are Nazis, and the records that do exist don't put him in suspicious places for the timeline. I can understand the desire to make connections to explain his son's views, though.
wrote last edited by [email protected]There’s no need to prove that Spakovsky’s father was a Nazi to explain or hold Spakovsky accountable for his beliefs and actions. Any attempt to do so is a waste of time and a distraction. It also echoes the idea that children inherit the sins of their parents, which I believe is in line with authoritarian thought.
An interesting counter example:
Stephen Miller was born in California, is Jewish, specifically descended from Eastern Europeans who escaped pogroms, the grandchild of immigrants, and the child of democrats one of which was a social worker. Why is he acting so much like a fascist and a key member of an administration that apparently hates California, democracy, social programs, and is hell bent on starting its own anti-immigrant pogroms?
Judge a piece of shit for who they are, not because they come from a long line of pieces of shit.
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Jacksonville State University is in Jacksonville, Alabama, not Jacksonville, Florida.
You can also verify which Jacksonville this is supposed be because little Von Spakovsky was born in Huntsville in 1959.
Granted, this thread is full of wild speculation, but the Jacksonville/Huntsville thing is factual.
Oh shit, thanks for the correction on that. I'll edit the relevant comments
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There’s no need to prove that Spakovsky’s father was a Nazi to explain or hold Spakovsky accountable for his beliefs and actions. Any attempt to do so is a waste of time and a distraction. It also echoes the idea that children inherit the sins of their parents, which I believe is in line with authoritarian thought.
An interesting counter example:
Stephen Miller was born in California, is Jewish, specifically descended from Eastern Europeans who escaped pogroms, the grandchild of immigrants, and the child of democrats one of which was a social worker. Why is he acting so much like a fascist and a key member of an administration that apparently hates California, democracy, social programs, and is hell bent on starting its own anti-immigrant pogroms?
Judge a piece of shit for who they are, not because they come from a long line of pieces of shit.
I totally agree. Only mentioned the connection because that might be the motivation OP had to look into this or make this post.
Regarding Stephen Miller, though, or more broadly any child of people who undergo traumatic events, suffering often begets more suffering. That's why we have so many quips like "hurt people hurt people". It may be that his views are a rebellion against his family's for one reason or another.
Also nothing changes that he's a piece of shit, but y'know.
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Huh, if only there was some way to know how big Huntsville was in 1951
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Huntsville,_Alabama
It's hilarious how many random points you have to swat down, like people are playing gotcha with every aspect of the post.
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What's funny about this is you're going a long way to imply the father was a fascist/Nazi, when growing up in Alabama in the 50's is all that's needed to turn a child into a racist, fascist piece of shit.
Heritage foundation isn't a Nazi respawn. It's the American born and bred fascists who have been in America all along. Either way it doesn't matter. They're fascists through and through, no different to the nazi's.
Or the zionists
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Buddy, that is not how ideology works. If a guy is doing nazi things, speculating is fair game. If there are circumstantial things, we'll talk about it.
Go write angry letters to the National Enquirer if you don't like this stuff, internet commenters aren't exactly the biggest fish to fry.
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https://time.com/archive/6935350/the-rocket-mans-dark-side/
For reasons best known to von Braun, who held the rank of colonel in the dreaded Nazi SS, the prisoners were ordered to turn their backs whenever he came into view. Those caught stealing glances at him were hung. One survivor recalled that von Braun, after inspecting a rocket component, charged, “That is clear sabotage.” His unquestioned judgment resulted in eleven men being hanged on the spot. Says Gehrels, “von Braun was directly involved in hangings.”
It seems kinda difficult to easily buy the rosy narrative of von Braun, but also be so skeptical that something seems off about Spakovsky's missing 9 years. The footnote cites his report as a similar case, not the case cited in the text. So does that make him similar to the accused woman? Possibly similar to the woman's grandson who had been a collaborator and the reason she was accused? If Ia A Shpakovskii in the case is actually Anatolli Ignatevich Shpakovskii, it would be interesting to know what he was accused of.
I really haven't delved into this subject, but I have a theory
Maybe the kind of racism that SS Germans hold is different from the racism that is prevalent in the US.
The SS would view any non-Aryan, meaning most Americans, on the same level regardless of skin tone. Blacks from Missouri, Metis, Cajun, Mennonite would all be the same.
So the KKK would have their panties in a twist about the black Americans on staff, crying that Braun hired animals, while Braun would be confused because from his perspective, he only has animals to hire.
This could be a very funny key and Peele sketch, like a no true Scotsman but who's more racist.
Again I haven't looked into the Nazi perspective justifying their racism so I might be way off the mark.
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Buddy, that is not how ideology works. If a guy is doing nazi things, speculating is fair game. If there are circumstantial things, we'll talk about it.
Go write angry letters to the National Enquirer if you don't like this stuff, internet commenters aren't exactly the biggest fish to fry.
If a guy is doing nazi things
The entire problem here is that there is literally no evidence anywhere of the guy in question doing any Nazi things at all
I'm not saying people can't speculate. I'm saying I think the conclusions they reached are wrong. That's equally fine to do on the internet
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If he contributed to project 2025, this is exactly nazi shit.
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/9/18/fascism_expert_jason_stanely_on_project
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If he contributed to project 2025, this is exactly nazi shit.
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/9/18/fascism_expert_jason_stanely_on_project
wrote last edited by [email protected]The guy in question is his dad, not him. Anatol von Shpakovsky died in the 80s
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Ok, raising a nazi shit is doing nazi shit too. So we'll speculate.
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Ok, raising a nazi shit is doing nazi shit too. So we'll speculate.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Oh right, so Hitler's dad Alois was a Nazi since he raised Hitler even though he died before WWI and doesn't seem to have had any unusual views. And then since Alois was a Nazi, I suppose his dad must have been a Nazi too, and then it's just a solid unbroken string of Nazis all the way back to the dawn of humanity
If Anatol was involved with Hans' career at all, sure, I could see why it'd be relevant. As it is, he died only a few years after Hans graduated and long before his involvement with government or the Heritage Foundation.
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This is protest too much territory
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https://time.com/archive/6935350/the-rocket-mans-dark-side/
For reasons best known to von Braun, who held the rank of colonel in the dreaded Nazi SS, the prisoners were ordered to turn their backs whenever he came into view. Those caught stealing glances at him were hung. One survivor recalled that von Braun, after inspecting a rocket component, charged, “That is clear sabotage.” His unquestioned judgment resulted in eleven men being hanged on the spot. Says Gehrels, “von Braun was directly involved in hangings.”
It seems kinda difficult to easily buy the rosy narrative of von Braun, but also be so skeptical that something seems off about Spakovsky's missing 9 years. The footnote cites his report as a similar case, not the case cited in the text. So does that make him similar to the accused woman? Possibly similar to the woman's grandson who had been a collaborator and the reason she was accused? If Ia A Shpakovskii in the case is actually Anatolli Ignatevich Shpakovskii, it would be interesting to know what he was accused of.
Your citation there shows von Braun being a total shitstain, but not necessarily a racist shitstain. He lacked morals and principles, and used slave labour; but it doesn't seem like he cared much about who the slaves were. So he doesn't seem to have ended up having any qualms about hiring black people. I suppose it makes him slightly more progressive, but not necessarily any less of a bad person.
Regarding Shpakovskii, it's unclear what he was accused or convicted of, and it's unclear if whatever the allegations were were also true. But given the example provided, it seems the worst thing he could be getting accused of there is stealing from partisans/Jewish people, which is bad but not a war crime (assuming his case is indeed 'similar' to the example provided in that text).
I'm not sure we can figure out what this guy did exactly with just online sources, I can't exactly find much more on the man. Given the evidence, he could in theory have been a Chetnik, which would fit his motivations and background. Being a full-blown Nazi seems less likely. That doesn't mean he wasn't involved in any war crimes, but there's currently nothing that suggests that he was.
