Can we please make a viable (federated!) amazon alternative? I have an idea!
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Collective buying and building of such a project means that there is not universal standard or regulation and the project falls apart when there is disagreement. Given the scale this is inevitable
Look at lemmy for example: most servers play nicely but occasionally you get the server like exploding heads that cause the overwhelming majority to defederate
Amazon has 300 warehouses across the US and another 175 worldwide according to a quick web search. Thatβs a lot of sites that have to play nice with each other. If even one of them starts having poor practices, doing something offensive, something disruptive, etc. it may cause a lot of the others to not want to work with them. If you have one that is especially shit stirring then it may cause a huge portion of the network to cut ties.
But unlike lemmy now itβs not just some social media where you jump to a new server. Now companies have their products held hostage. Now people in that region potentially have services significantly disrupted. Now your whole system is undermined and a bezos type can swoop in to prove his is much better and more trustworthy.
A state controlling it (which would inherently happen with collective ownership if done correctly, a pseudo state would be created given the scale) would introduce regulation and enforcement to ensure consistency in operation. It is then the responsibility of the constituents to hold representatives accountable to ensure regulations and enforcement are meaningful
Thats a very good point. Thank you. I dont disagree on any of it but I think there could be alternatives to some parts.
There are physical syndicate-owned places that store collective things in them. Also, we are talking businesses here. A collective warehouse of say 100 sellers around a small city or bit town would not be easily being held hostage.
But these are details, although very interesting. Its very good long term for making such a project more resiliant and competitive.
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Condescension was not the intention at all. The fact that you mention logistics only as a foot note is what lead me to believe you really didn't understand, and it was just meant as an explanation. Amazon is just scale, in every aspect, and I don't think that can be achieved with a federated approach in the physical retail world.
As for being constructive, you can be constructive by talking someone out of an idea. I really don't believe there's any viability in the idea, no matter how much I wish there was. I personally value my time, so I assume others do as well. I consider saving someones time incredibly constructive, but that only applies if you intend to pursue the idea to actually get somewhere "real" with it, let's say reaching "profit" or improving participants existing profits.
You might enjoy spending your time figuring out solutions here, maybe you see it as an economic experiment or hobby project, so it's fun no matter the outcome. I'm that case my comment really isn't constructive in your situation, and I'm sorry.
Rest assured I didn't comment out of malice.
Thanks for explaining. I appreciate the honesty and now I see your post in a different light.
That said, I'm currently selfemployed with a small ethical it company and do open source development and project management as well as ngo work on the side.
You could argue that I'm a hopeless idealist, although I have made millions with my projects in the past (which I of course did not keep).
I'd say I have a keen sense for opportunities with a certain stubbornness to do the right thing and break down what I perceive as wrong.
If I can get 10 vendors to get off amazon and provide good service for their customers, I'm glad. Everyone on top I'm stoked.
So yes, a hobby if you will.
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I mean sure but again that is akin to ebay. ebay is amazone without the warehouses, shipping, and logistics intelligence and organization. so anyone that wants to avoid amazon could use ebay right now but they don't because they want the benefits of the fast shipping and returns and such. again I think having some sort of federated marketplace would be great but it would in no way be like ordering from amazon.
You are overlooking the part where you dont haggle with the seller on amazon, you dont have to look if the item is actually used and just sold as new. You dont have to gauge if its a scam, which is hugely common on ebay. Its more like a platform for experienced buyers with concrete ideas. Not that I would not see a possible ebay alternative here as well but my main focus is on providing unified shopping in every site this platform would ne run on with a closed trust network which could then be expanded.
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The problem they (should/did) solve was scamming, and payments. So you'd need to have some banking system with locked money, disputes etc. IMO that is the complicated part, the rest is just more or less a searchable database.
That's a solved issue. Monero escrow services have been doing exactly this for the dark web for years now
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But you're saying yourself that those are "obviously bots". It's easy to ignore those. And just to be clear, I really did mean the reviews, and not the score (where the skew is less transparent).
Everyone leaving a review has to have an account somewhere in the federated network. This includes seeing up an instance just to use it for review bots, or fake votes on something. Obviously there's is defederation and other mechanisms, and I'm sure there are ways to improve the situation. But the whole base setup is just inherently much harder to get into a trustworthy position. Even the common centralized sites (not just Amazon) have trouble getting it under control when they can "see" will the related data, for finding outliers and such. I'm just saying it's an even harder proposition.
There is a simple way to solve this. Make it so only people who have purchased the product can give reviews.
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@haui_lemmy Flomarket is more like a separate shops, you need a protocol, and gui's that are easy to embed via EU made web frameworks like drupal. ( React to be avoided as it's from meta ) That way you see the shop on the individual site but also can create aggregators that look like ebay or ammazon but are federated.
I think htmx is an ideal framework for such a purpose
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ITT: OP has an "idea" and no money. Please do all the work.
We are not your thinktank bro
I think op sees us as exactly that. His thinktank. Isn't that kinda the whole point of a social network?
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This is surprisingly one of the few actual useful uses of blockchain. Business tried to shove it in everywhere and it didn't make sense because blockchain is a way to audit federated separate instances - which businesses are not. They're a single monolithic structure, and they don't need the trust - they already have it. They're themselves, they just have to trust their own internal teams.
We, on the otherhand, are the perfect use for it. A way to say X person paid Y person for this product on this day at this time, X person now has the authority to rate Y person for how they did. Immutable, impossible to fake.
Exactly xmr has been doing this for the markets on the dark web for years now. Escrow reviews ratings seller trust etc.
I fear the idea of crypto has been so poisoned by scammers and bullshit that the average person had forgotten it actually has value
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Hi folks!
I'm here with another idea. Let's make an amazon alternative. I know! I know! That was asked for a couple times already but lets discuss some details.Amazon is basically glorified dropshipping by now. What if we just made federated (not sure if over activitypub would work) ads and sales, powered by fediseer (the "trust" network of the fediverse).
Example 1:
So you buy at toms groceries, you trust them. they have experience with tina's hardware store and they trust them. so you can buy both toms and tinas wares on both sites.Example 2:
So for example, I run a small business that sells computers. You run a small business that sells mice and keyboards. I have worked with you before so I mark you as trusted in my local website, which federates with yours, showing your products in my shop. If a customer buys my computer and buys your keyboard on top, my site sends you a buy order with customer address and payment. I get a small fee for my electricity of say 1%.Can someone try and poke holes in this idea? It feels like this could work!
Have a nice weekend.
No, federated model is chosen over distributed model or centralized model to allow feuds, putting it simply.
That may work for a Reddit alternative, but doesn't work for markets. Helps moderation (some idea of it, I don't think that idea is good), but definitely hurts a single space to sell and buy stuff.
Which is why cryptobros and such types make either centralized or distributed systems.
So much for using computer networks for this.
Now about Amazon specifically - your post omits the whole warehouses and logistics part. Which is most of Amazon's core business.
Computer people today somehow started forgetting that real life is very hard and complex. When I was a kid (born 1996, so not old man), computers had a promise of making that real life easier, and from time to time delivered on it, but at some point bullshit like glossy buttons and Web 2.0 and social media became a thing in itself, and everyone started behaving as if it's done, we now can look down like olympic gods to those mortals messing around in dirt, and sometimes easily solve their problems. We can't.
Getting back to logistics - one has to design a system of shared warehouses, transportation, mailing and delivery tasks, tracking, reporting on outcomes of every event, and all that should be even more abuse-resilient than the processes inside actual Amazon. You'll have Byzantine problems in every interaction.
The "distributed king of all social media, solving once and for all the problem of centralized platforms" that I'm often dreaming about is realistic compared to that.
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No, federated model is chosen over distributed model or centralized model to allow feuds, putting it simply.
That may work for a Reddit alternative, but doesn't work for markets. Helps moderation (some idea of it, I don't think that idea is good), but definitely hurts a single space to sell and buy stuff.
Which is why cryptobros and such types make either centralized or distributed systems.
So much for using computer networks for this.
Now about Amazon specifically - your post omits the whole warehouses and logistics part. Which is most of Amazon's core business.
Computer people today somehow started forgetting that real life is very hard and complex. When I was a kid (born 1996, so not old man), computers had a promise of making that real life easier, and from time to time delivered on it, but at some point bullshit like glossy buttons and Web 2.0 and social media became a thing in itself, and everyone started behaving as if it's done, we now can look down like olympic gods to those mortals messing around in dirt, and sometimes easily solve their problems. We can't.
Getting back to logistics - one has to design a system of shared warehouses, transportation, mailing and delivery tasks, tracking, reporting on outcomes of every event, and all that should be even more abuse-resilient than the processes inside actual Amazon. You'll have Byzantine problems in every interaction.
The "distributed king of all social media, solving once and for all the problem of centralized platforms" that I'm often dreaming about is realistic compared to that.
Your comment brings no ounce of new ideas or criticisms to the table, overlooks all the pros and cons already mentioned and assumes you know a lot more thane for example. I run businesses for 15 years, do ethical business since 10 yrs and am thinking from a position of experience.
The reason I dont present myself in a way that screams competence is because this is lemmy and we dont need this stuff. I like spitballing ideas and push new projects for the benefit of the people.
But feel free to suggest constructive things.
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The goal is not to ensnare the user but to free them. AI is absolutely not part of this idea. I havent read of the mycelial web yet though. Is it a thing or just an AI pipedream?
I made a first prototype here: https://github.com/bluebbberry/MyceliumWebServer. Its recommends songs to the users. You can see it here: https://techhub.social/@myceliumweb and try it out by posting to #babyfungus on Mastodon.
You can do AI in an ethical way by making it more decentralized. The idea behind the mycelial web is to realize it based on volunteer computing, meaning that everybody can contribute computing power. And then I can say, for example: use my models, which was trained with all these other models, on this Amazon alternative to recommend me stuff. And the AI model was trained on my PC and runs on my PC (just wasn't trained solely with my computing power or my data alone).
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Flohmarkt is nice if a little small atm but of course it is very new. I'll check if it would work to implement their api in a normal website/shop. because my point also is to make people independent from each other so that no single entity can control them. in this case I mean if flohmarkt got "outlawed" for example because lobbyists and such, websites would prevail, i hope.
Thanks for participating.
We coiod think of an integration with all main ecommerce platforms like:
WooCommerce
X Cart
PrestaShop
OpenCart
osCommerce
Joomla
Zen Cart
VirtueMart (Joomla)
Drupal Commerce (Drupal)
KonaKart
PimCore -
I made a first prototype here: https://github.com/bluebbberry/MyceliumWebServer. Its recommends songs to the users. You can see it here: https://techhub.social/@myceliumweb and try it out by posting to #babyfungus on Mastodon.
You can do AI in an ethical way by making it more decentralized. The idea behind the mycelial web is to realize it based on volunteer computing, meaning that everybody can contribute computing power. And then I can say, for example: use my models, which was trained with all these other models, on this Amazon alternative to recommend me stuff. And the AI model was trained on my PC and runs on my PC (just wasn't trained solely with my computing power or my data alone).
I mean that definitely sounds like a cool idea, regardless of the drop shipping idea.
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I'm definitely intrigued. I have HUGE prejudices when it comes to blockchain, one being climate impact. The other being privacy of all things. But I can see it as an option.
Climate impact of monero is significantly less per transaction than any fiat. Their are no physical banks with employees and buildings and travel and transport and minting etc etc etc. Monero is the only truly private currencies all others have every transaction tracked.
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We coiod think of an integration with all main ecommerce platforms like:
WooCommerce
X Cart
PrestaShop
OpenCart
osCommerce
Joomla
Zen Cart
VirtueMart (Joomla)
Drupal Commerce (Drupal)
KonaKart
PimCoreThat would probably jumpstart the adoption. Good point.
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Climate impact of monero is significantly less per transaction than any fiat. Their are no physical banks with employees and buildings and travel and transport and minting etc etc etc. Monero is the only truly private currencies all others have every transaction tracked.
I'll have to look into it at some point. The crypto bros could have also been hired by banks at this point to burn crypto as comoetition. I would not touch it with a 10 foot pole before extensive personally conducted research. which is unrealistic even for myself but especially for everyone else.
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you are not proposing a federated amazon, this is just federated ads and/or reviews.
how to process payments? how to ship goods? how to handle refunds? how to handle contestations?
please you can't just make anything federated. this protocol is built for social media and struggles to take over that sphere, we should focus on one thing rather than throwing random stuff at the wall hoping it sticks (cough federated tik tok cough)
the idea is not bad. Think you create your ecommerce site, list your products, and they are automatically listed in a huge marketplace.
The same could apply for bed and breakfast booking websites -
Hi folks!
I'm here with another idea. Let's make an amazon alternative. I know! I know! That was asked for a couple times already but lets discuss some details.Amazon is basically glorified dropshipping by now. What if we just made federated (not sure if over activitypub would work) ads and sales, powered by fediseer (the "trust" network of the fediverse).
Example 1:
So you buy at toms groceries, you trust them. they have experience with tina's hardware store and they trust them. so you can buy both toms and tinas wares on both sites.Example 2:
So for example, I run a small business that sells computers. You run a small business that sells mice and keyboards. I have worked with you before so I mark you as trusted in my local website, which federates with yours, showing your products in my shop. If a customer buys my computer and buys your keyboard on top, my site sends you a buy order with customer address and payment. I get a small fee for my electricity of say 1%.Can someone try and poke holes in this idea? It feels like this could work!
Have a nice weekend.
I like the idea and it could work very well for smaller communities. In fact, theyre already doing something similar called "Werbering" (advertising ring) in germany. It takes the idea and elevates it into the digital space.
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I mean that definitely sounds like a cool idea, regardless of the drop shipping idea.
I think a link between your idea and mine can be found in the work of writer Evgeny Morozov (https://mondediplo.com/2024/08/07ai-cold-war), who did some interesting research of alternative forms of how the internet could have developed including a project by the chilean government called "Cybersyn" (in his podcast "The Santiago Boys", https://open.spotify.com/show/7xlRxnooUnl48JVo726YXn). Although it was pretty centralized and not exactly Amazon, more like a socialist distribution system between industries. Well, its a very interesting podcast anyways ...
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I like the idea and it could work very well for smaller communities. In fact, theyre already doing something similar called "Werbering" (advertising ring) in germany. It takes the idea and elevates it into the digital space.
Thats an interesting bit of information. Thanks!
