Will wine ever be able to run anticheat?
-
Yeah kernel level with hacks is what I'm interested in, couldn't the wine client give fake kernel level control to them that's actually in userspace?
Sounds like a terrible idea; this would only further deteriorate the trust some companies have in Linux with anti-cheat, that would be terrible for the adoption
-
Yeah but that doesn't count tbh, if the dev has to give the okay we lose a ton of games, and that isn't what I'm looking for, the dev shouldn't be able to know it isn't running on windows
Then the answer is definitely not - at the very least Wine would need to simulate a very large part of the NT kernel.
-
Just buy a minipc and use it solely for gaming on Windows if you really need to game.
No idea why you've been down voted. If someone simply must play kernel level anti-cheat games, the best way to do it is on Windows. Developers have made it very clear they do not trust Wine/Proton/Linux and that are market share is simply too small to care.
-
Developers who use kernel anti-cheat don't support Linux because userspace anti-cheat is largely pointless. It doesn't matter if you personally don't care, the companies that want anti-cheat do care.
The workaround for kernel anti-cheat requires hundreds of USD in hardware. The workaround for userspace anti-cheat is entirely software.
Because of this, you will have less cheaters if cheating has a $500 price tag. That's why kernel anti-cheat is effective, there's no way for that to be solved with a WINE patch.
That’s why kernel anti-cheat is effective
Is it actually effective tho?
-
No, forget anticheat games. It's not possible to create a "fake" rootkit. If it was possible, they would have done it for Windows too, and it would defeat the purpose of anti-cheat. So, just don't run these games. They don't worth your security.
I mean I wouldn't mind defeating the purpose of anticheat. Let's all defeat the purpose of anticheat.
-
That’s why kernel anti-cheat is effective
Is it actually effective tho?
It doesn't stop cheating, it just makes cheating require spending a few hundred dollars and dealing with complex hardware setups. This means that relatively few people try.
Non-kernel anti-cheat can be bypassed by software. So it's cheap and easily available.
That's the only difference. Kernel anti-cheat doesn't prevent cheating, it just makes it more expensive.
-
I'm not finding any information online other than that it's difficult
it already runs anticheat whenever game developers allow it to.
-
I wonder if immutable systems could negate the need for kernel anti cheat. If the game can ensure the current kernel and image is one from a list of acceptable ones, it doesn't need to kernel anti cheat. They could do this by comparing the checksum or something.
That's essentially a console and not a 'pc'
-
Yeah but that doesn't count tbh, if the dev has to give the okay we lose a ton of games, and that isn't what I'm looking for, the dev shouldn't be able to know it isn't running on windows
You can't lose what you never had, though.
-
Just buy a minipc and use it solely for gaming on Windows if you really need to game.
Based on his other comments, he's hoping to use Wine to cheat
-
Based on his other comments, he's hoping to use Wine to cheat
No, I have no interest in cheating
-
At that point you might as well not have a kernel level anti cheat and companies who insist on kernel level anti cheat will block wine. The only solutions I see are
- Developers mainly use server side anti cheat
- They make native Linux games
- Distros provide a way to ensure a untainted (signed) kernel
That would ba a massive win in my book, kernel level anticheat is malware
-
It doesn't stop cheating, it just makes cheating require spending a few hundred dollars and dealing with complex hardware setups. This means that relatively few people try.
Non-kernel anti-cheat can be bypassed by software. So it's cheap and easily available.
That's the only difference. Kernel anti-cheat doesn't prevent cheating, it just makes it more expensive.
Can't you just use a virtual machine?
-
Developers who use kernel anti-cheat don't support Linux because userspace anti-cheat is largely pointless. It doesn't matter if you personally don't care, the companies that want anti-cheat do care.
The workaround for kernel anti-cheat requires hundreds of USD in hardware. The workaround for userspace anti-cheat is entirely software.
Because of this, you will have less cheaters if cheating has a $500 price tag. That's why kernel anti-cheat is effective, there's no way for that to be solved with a WINE patch.
I simply do not believe that it costs that much to cheat with kernel level anticheat.
kernel level anticheat is pointless malware in my book, let it burn
-
If it could the anti-cheat system wouldn't be worth using. Being able to "trick" the anti-cheat system into thinking something else is going on than actually happens is the same an actual "cheat" would do. That's why kernel level anti-cheat system go though a lot of trouble to detect any kind of virtualization or similar tricks...the moment you could trick them into accepting a fake kernel is also the moment that fake kernel can pretend the fake input it generates actually comes from a real mouse or the checksum of that openGL/vulkan library is exactly the one expected and not the one of some altered libraries that "accidentally" forget to not render stuff behind walls...
It's also something that needs to be kept in mind when talking about "Companies can just enable the linux support in their anti-cheat systems but they don't." While this is true of course it also means the kernel-level anti-cheat systems are bared from kernel-access and degraded to user-space only. And as people have access to the source-code of the linux kernel nothing is stopping anyone from just modifying the kernel to...give more "favorable results" while playing the game. Of course the linux playerbase it too tiny to really offer a market for such cheats...but it's not completely unreasonable to not want to erode the capabilities of your anti-cheat system (That is of course if you believe they work in the first place...but that's a different discussion).
It not being worth using is good, I want this malware practice to die.
i'm sure there are already workarounds on windows, it's not like cheating has been eliminated there
-
I'm not finding any information online other than that it's difficult
Anti cheat software tries to find cheats running on the computer, and in order to that, so called kernel-level anticheat hooks into NT (Windows kernel) internals, and runs at the highest possible privilege level. It has to do that so it can monitor everything going on in the system. If it didn't do that, the cheat could just hide from the anticheat software by running with superior privileges.
Wine does not implement undocumented/internal parts of NT, and neither does it run at an elevated privilege level. It also cannot realistically implement any and all possible NT kernel internals, and it cannot possibly hide the fact that it's actually wine, and not real Windows, from any program that really wants to figure this out.
If wine tried to implement a specific workaround for a specific anti-cheat software/version, in order to it trick into thinking it's running on a real Windows system with elevated privileges, the anti-cheat vendor would likely interpret this as a kind of deception, and they could easily update their software to detect this situation.
Theoretically, anti-cheat vendors could do kernel-level anticheat for the Linux kernel specifically if the game runs on Linux, but this has problems: First of all a general backlash and complete lack of cooperation from the Linux community (btw, Microsoft isn't too happy about them doing this on Windows either, and they might at some point do something about this, since it's bad for security and stability). Also, Linux kernel internals aren't at all stable, and so just practically you cannot hook into the Linux kernel nearly as easily as you can into NT.
Some anti-cheat vendors do support Linux though, but only optionally if the game dev allows that. In practice, this just means many checks will just be disabled on Linux, which is presumably why many games do not enable the Linux support.
tl;dr: No. Only the anti-cheat vendor / game dev can realistically fix the situation, and they may not want to because it'll be worse at actually detecting cheats on Linux in practice.
-
I simply do not believe that it costs that much to cheat with kernel level anticheat.
kernel level anticheat is pointless malware in my book, let it burn
It requires either a Direct Memory Access card and supporting software or a video capture card and enough processing power to run fast image classification for AI aim bots.
Anything running directly on the PC can be detected by the kernel anti-cheat.
You can look online for the hardware and prices
-
I'm not finding any information online other than that it's difficult
Yes, we are waiting for the CrowdStrike aha moment where the industry learns the hard way that anticheat with root privileges was a dangerous idea not worth the risks.
-
That would ba a massive win in my book, kernel level anticheat is malware
You cannot realistically make it impossible to detect that you're running on wine. Wine just implements the Windows ABIs. The actual code running is totally different. Even just reading any of the binary code of literally any function would reveal it's different from the Windows code. How are you going to stop it from doing memory reads on stuff that it needs to be able to read? You can't. You'd need a full hardware emulator for that.
-
It requires either a Direct Memory Access card and supporting software or a video capture card and enough processing power to run fast image classification for AI aim bots.
Anything running directly on the PC can be detected by the kernel anti-cheat.
You can look online for the hardware and prices
What about a VM?
