Why I recommend against Brave.
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What's wrong with ungoogled-chromium? Or Vivaldi?
Vivaldi sends an unstoppable user counter signal to their main server, promised to change the system and now they're ignoring any requests for updates on the issue.
That rustles my Jimmies, dings my bell and waves my red flags.
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I've still not forgiven them for prematurely cancelling BoJack Horseman.
it felt, like, complete, but im genuinely shocked it got as many seasons as it did, not being dog shit. feels like that or 'stranger things' was the last thing to slip through.
but I can only take 'stranger things' on others' word; never got into it myself.
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I made the mistake of responding to Lumiluz on a different comment thread. They haven't responded yet, but based on this communication here I will just ignore any reply. It's strange we live in a world where you can be accused of being a KKK member due to unrelated tools one uses to browse the Internet.
It's not strange, people love jumping to extreme conclusions if there's even a whiff of something they don't like. Name calling is unfortunately very common.
I'd prefer more fact based discussions, but here we are.
The crazy thing is, I very much dislike Trump, but I get labeled as a supporter if I dare say anything positive about him or anyone who supports him, or in this case, not vehemently oppose everything a Trump supporter touches. I find that ridiculous, but here we are.
Anyway, hopefully someone finds what I write useful.
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It’s tempting to see his donations to prop 8 as just his personal business, but like so many others you’re missing the fact that when your political beliefs are that other humans are actually subhuman and not equals, that goes beyond “personal politics.” Like outright naziism, there should be no safe place for a single ounce of this thinking. If you think it’s akin to liking shrimp more than chicken, you should deeply rethink your own “personal politics.”
you’re missing the fact that when your political beliefs are that other humans are actually subhuman and not equals
Wait, so believing same sex marriage shouldn't be allowed means you think gay people are sub-human? That's quite the leap. It may be true, but you'll need a bit more evidence than a private donation to a group pushing a bill to ban same sex marriage.
Even if he is literal Nazi trash (big doubt), his company produces FOSS, which can and should be evaluated on its own merits.
Look, I'm married to an immigrant POC. If he supported banning immigration interracial marriage, that would piss me off, but it wouldn't have any impact on the quality of the browser. I bet CEOs of companies that make a number of products I use have terrible political takes or like Eich, but that doesn't change the quality of the product.
If he brought his politics into his company, that would be different. But how he spends his money and free time doesn't really matter to me.
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you’re missing the fact that when your political beliefs are that other humans are actually subhuman and not equals
Wait, so believing same sex marriage shouldn't be allowed means you think gay people are sub-human? That's quite the leap. It may be true, but you'll need a bit more evidence than a private donation to a group pushing a bill to ban same sex marriage.
Even if he is literal Nazi trash (big doubt), his company produces FOSS, which can and should be evaluated on its own merits.
Look, I'm married to an immigrant POC. If he supported banning immigration interracial marriage, that would piss me off, but it wouldn't have any impact on the quality of the browser. I bet CEOs of companies that make a number of products I use have terrible political takes or like Eich, but that doesn't change the quality of the product.
If he brought his politics into his company, that would be different. But how he spends his money and free time doesn't really matter to me.
You keep saying “but the product is fine” as if you don’t understand the concept of a boycott on moral grounds. It’s also hard to trust your privacy to someone who doesn’t believe you should have the same rights. Yes I consider that dehumanizing. If you’d been prevented from marrying your immigrant POC you would feel dehumanized as well, and I hazard to guess you might choose alternatives to products built by those who helped bring you to that state. At least fuck I hope so, because otherwise you are missing a screw.
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I'm almost certain they mean Reddit, but there are a lot of sites that aren't lemmy.dbzer0.com ... like lemm.ee and infosec.pub ... even some sites that aren't Lemmy instances like infosec.exchance or hachyderm.io.
You would be right with your first guess
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Yeah brave has it own issue, but overall it is still more privacy respecting than chrome or edge. Brave is personally not my choice. I use librewolf. Still, if someone ask me for a browser to use for their privacy journey I will undoubtedly tell them to just use brave. Firefox(and the forks) isn't a choice for most normal people it often break Captcha. Some website even straight up just don't allow Firefox based then tell you to use chrome. I am not by anyway try to defend Brave action, but I can't see much choice that just work for people who don't even know what an OS is.
Over Vivaldi?
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If you are keen on personal privacy, you might have come across Brave Browser. Brave is a Chromium-based browser that promises to deliver privacy with built-in ad-blocking and content-blocking protection. It also offers several quality-of-life features and services, like a VPN and Tor access. I mean, it's even listed on the reputable PrivacyTools website. Why am I telling you to steer clear of this browser, then?
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You keep saying “but the product is fine” as if you don’t understand the concept of a boycott on moral grounds. It’s also hard to trust your privacy to someone who doesn’t believe you should have the same rights. Yes I consider that dehumanizing. If you’d been prevented from marrying your immigrant POC you would feel dehumanized as well, and I hazard to guess you might choose alternatives to products built by those who helped bring you to that state. At least fuck I hope so, because otherwise you are missing a screw.
I absolutely do boycott based on moral grounds. I've been boycotting Walmart for >10 years because of unfair competition actions (killing off small businesses), poor treatment of workers, and being a massive force for reducing worker treatment in other companies by forcing prices down. Likewise for Nestle and what they've done in Africa, I'm trying to eliminate Amazon for their warehouse policies, and I've been reducing or eliminating purchases from other companies as well along similar lines.
I draw the line at actual actions by companies though, and I don't really care what c-suite types do on their own time and with their own money. If I boycotted companies based on what their execs believe, I wouldn't be able to buy anything.
you would feel dehumanized as well,
Oh absolutely, but I would funnel that anger at the people who supported and passed it, not at the companies those people work for or the products those companies produce.
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Over Vivaldi?
I know that I am overly paranoid but they do the weird user ID thing. It it opt in ask they said in their privacy policy.
When you install Vivaldi browser (“Vivaldi”), each installation profile is assigned a unique user ID that is stored on your device. Vivaldi will send a message using HTTPS directly to our servers located in Iceland every 24 hours containing this ID, version, cpu architecture, screen resolution and time since last message.We anonymize the IP address of Vivaldi users by removing the last octet of the IP address from your Vivaldi client then we store the resolved approximate location after using a local geoip lookupAt least to my knowledge brave do not do anything like this.
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In short, I support these probably for the same reason you oppose Eich: I believe in freedom. I guess I define that a bit more liberally than you do.
I know you fake mofos are the type to always need to get the last word because it makes it seem to other dumdums that getting the last say is somehow "winning", but I'm leaving this link here for anyone who remotely might believe your take is a good one:
I'm not trying to win any argument, I'm trying to have a discussion. It seems to me that you're not interested in that, so I'll leave some links to relevant logical fallacies in a hope that someone going this far down the thread will make up their own mind using reason instead of emotion.
- Poisoning the Well - i.e. Eich's products must be bad because they believe something bad, or something like that
- Association Fallacy - Eich believes something bad, therefore his corporation and products must be bad
- Argumentum_ad_populum (bandwagoning)
The link in the post above me is also great, I highly recommend reading it, especially the following from the person who wrote about it:
Popper underlines the importance of rational argument, drawing attention to the fact that many intolerant philosophies reject rational argument and thus prevent calls for tolerance from being received on equal terms.
To be clear, I am not arguing that Eich's intolerant beliefs be tolerated, I'm arguing that they're irrelevant to the discussion about Brave browser (i.e. the Association Fallacy). By all means, protest against intolerance, be loud, and above all, completely discredit it through rational argument, and I'll join you in that. But don't become the thing you claim to hate by refusing rational argument. Articulate why his personal actions matter at all to the products his company makes, and why those can't be evaluated on their own merits.
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Brave has great anti-fingerprinting measures I just wish I could get that without installing crypto malware on my pc
Use Firefox with the Canvas Blocker addon, works on Fennec as well (Android fork with Mozilla telemetry removed).
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I'm almost certain they mean Reddit, but there are a lot of sites that aren't lemmy.dbzer0.com ... like lemm.ee and infosec.pub ... even some sites that aren't Lemmy instances like infosec.exchance or hachyderm.io.
What about infosec.pub? Been my home instance ever since .world blocked piracy discussions, and I never had any issues there.
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It's good for playing youtube without ads and Netflix which doesnt work with my firefox setup for some reason. That's all I use it for.
Weird, youtube with ublock origin is all I need to enjoy no ads. Are you using some additional scripts that modify youtube in some way?
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Believing that same-sex marriage shouldn’t be a government-supported institution isn’t the same as believing LGBT people are “invalid” or “wrong” or whatever.
That's great and all, but we don't live in those times yet. Not granting people the right to marry whoever they want in current times based on the premise that we should change the marital law somewhere in the future is still nothing short of discrimination. And let's not forget that Eich supported a campaign that was very explicitly against gay marriage, not the current concept of marriage altogether. Weak argument.
and that we should replace it with a series of contracts that grant certain legal privileges (e.g. joint tax filing, power of attorney, etc)
That's what marriage already is for the most part in many parts of the world. And in those cases, the resulting financial disadvantage for example also makes it more apparent, why being against gay marriage is not just about names on a piece of paper.
I don’t know Eich’s personal political views, and I honestly don’t care, as long as they don’t interfere with his role.
How empathetic of you. Might as well support Josef Mengele with that attitude. A bit more personal responsibility couldn't hurt.
My understanding is that they can’t really do that, because the payments are anonymous.
Well, last I checked it's just another ERC-20 Token and not a new Monero, so I have my doubts about that. I also assume that they must keep transaction logs somewhere to keep track of the amount of BAT donated to a creator. But I can't be sure either.
Use established, proven tools like Tor Browser.
It's also kind of useless for Brave to have implemented Tor in the first place. Even if Brave matures further, there's basically no reason not to use the Tor Browser for its intended purpose.
not the current concept of marriage altogether.
I never claimed it was. I merely gave an example of how opposition to something doesn't necessarily indicate opposition to the people it's intending to help.
For the record, I support same-sex marriage, on the grounds that my preferred policy (which would open up marriage to more than just same-sex couples) is unlikely to get traction anytime soon, so something is better than nothing. Don't let perfect be the enemy of better.
However, I have friends who oppose same-sex marriage and don't hate gay people (in fact, they're good friends with LGBT people). The world isn't black and white, so we shouldn't assume someone is a Nazi just because they believe a couple of the same things Nazis do. That's a logical fallacy, and it does way more harm than good.
That’s what marriage already is for the most part in many parts of the world
Exactly, and I'm arguing that those benefits shouldn't be bundled. I've known couples that want to share custody but not finances, or maybe visitation rights but not power of attorney. Relationships are complicated, and I think the institution of marriage is outdated. We spend tons of time and money on divorces and prenuptial agreements, and I think that could be dramatically simplified if we separated out the specific agreements and let people pick which they want.
Marriage should be a religious/personal thing, not a legal one. Whether you want to consider yourself married shouldn't depend on a piece of paper in much the same way that your chosen gender shouldn't.
Josef Mengele
That's quite the logical leap.
it’s just another ERC-20 Token and not a new Monero
I don't know, and honestly it doesn't matter.
My preferred form of record keeping is GNU Taler. You'd load a wallet to pay for articles or whatever and the browser vendor would use a very cheap form of accounting to keep track of purchases, and lump payments to websites together with payments from other users. Taler is nice in that it protects the privacy of the purchaser, has cryptographic protections without the complexity of P2P verification (and none of the ecological impact), and is pretty easy to understand. The vendor could even audit transactions if they want without violating the privacy of the user.
But honestly, I don't care what mechanism they use, whether crypto or some form of centralized wallet. I just want to be able to pay to remove ads without needing a million accounts.
It’s also kind of useless for Brave to have implemented Tor in the first place
I disagree. There's value in having a second rendering engine in case a website doesn't work on Tor Browser. It's unlikely to have similar protections (e.g. finger printing resistance), but it could work in a pinch for a site you need to access that doesn't work on Gecko for whatever reason.
That said, you could probably achieve that by pointing the browser at a running Tor service (e.g. Orbot on Android). You'd need to be extra careful about things like DNS (which Brave got wrong), but it's an option. Having it bundled is nice though.
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Yes, it uses the same engine, but it blocks their ads.
Which means nothing, when Google can, and is, pushing technology to freely unleash their ad network on all web pages, as a function of the engine itself.
No, it's not a competitor. Excepting in their ad markets, and frankly, it's not a competitor, it's a statistical blip.
as a function of the engine itself.
AFAIK, there's nothing in Blink (the rendering engine), V8 (the JavaScript run engine), or any other low level pieces of the browser that does this. What they're doing is hamstringing extensions and building in a layer of tracking into the browser on top of the engine. A fork can absolutely keep the engine bits and remove the tracking bits.
The problem with Chrome's hegemony over the rendering engine has nothing to do with their ad network, but with their ability to steer people to use their products instead of competitors' (e.g. "Google Docs is faster on Chrome, switch today!" just because they introduced a chrome-only spec extension).
Brave absolutely is a competitor. They block Google's ads, have their own search engine (and are building their own index), and provide a privacy friendly alternative to Chrome without any compatibility issues. That's why it's my backup to Firefox (and forks), sometimes things don't work properly on Gecko and I want a privacy-friendly alternative to chrome. That used to be Chromium w/ uBlock Origin, but with that extension taken from the chrome web store, I reach for Brave, which has it built in.
And yeah, it doesn't have a ton of users. That doesn't mean they're not a competitor though.
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My understanding is that he had a very good working relationship w/ LGBTQ people in the org
Then why betray them? He has nothing to gain from funding such a campaign. There is no logical explanation and sure as hell no justification for it.
[...] so it really shouldn’t be anyone’s business.
How he votes or spends his personal money shouldn’t be relevant at all.Oh, shut up. When this asshole funds a campaign that's actively fighting against the rights of millions of people, it absolutely is our damn fucking business.
Yeah, this is totally wrong, and they reversed course immediately.
It's bad enough that they even got the idea, let alone implement and actually ship it. Negative reactions shouldn't be the first deciding factor for reversing such decisions.
Brave should have worked with major websites to share revenue
Not just share, completely give up that revenue. Blocking ads is one thing, but to then also monetise other people's content should not allow Brave to earn even a single cent.
Your proposed solution sounds fine, though.CEO is generally a right-wing dick.
Fair, but that should be a separate consideration from whether to use a given product.
Again, no. Maybe if there weren't any alternatives, but there are plenty.
You probably wouldn’t like the CEO of any company whose products you like,
That's probably true, however, Eich is a different story. Despite not gaining anything from it, neither for his companies nor for himself, he was willing to go out of his way to support a campaign in favour of discriminating millions of people, proactively. This doesn't just make me not like him, it makes me despise him.
Other CEO's typically at least keep quiet about politics, and make me dislike them mainly because of self-interest and their resulting business decisions, which can at least still be somewhat understandable.And let me be clear that I'm not going to jump on people who use Brave for whatever reason. But under no circumstances will I defend those who downplay or justify Brave's, and especially Eich's, actions.
He has nothing to gain from funding such a campaign.
He obviously believes that same sex marriage shouldn't be performed by the government. If you want to know why, ask him, not me.
That said, I don't see this as "betrayal," it was a private donation. The only reason we're talking about it is because someone dug through his donation history (donations to such orgs are public record) and made a big deal about it. AFAIK, there were no accusations of him treating LGBT people unfairly, only opposition to his donation.
It’s bad enough that they even got the idea,
I'd like to see an explanation beyond, "yeah, we screwed up." Who signed off on it, and what was their justification?
Your proposed solution sounds fine, though.
Thanks. The idea is that the browser has a vested interest in protecting the privacy of it's users, so finding a workable solution for both the user and the website should provide some funding for the browser.
But yes, either the browser should block ads so nobody gets revenue or work something out where everyone wins. Profiting off someone else's content without permission will always be wrong.
Maybe if there weren’t any alternatives, but there are plenty.
Do you have a better suggestion for a chromium-based browser that's FOSS and has effective ad blocking and tracking protection?
I use Firefox (or fork) most of the time, but I need to test on a chromium browser and need a backup for the odd website that fails on Firefox.
Brave sticks out as the obvious solution here.
Other CEO’s typically at least keep quiet about politics
He tried to. He never advertised his political beliefs, donations, etc. Someone just found out and blasted him for it. For an org that supposedly cares about privacy, that's pretty alarming!
But under no circumstances will I defend those who downplay or justify Brave’s, and especially Eich’s, actions.
Nor will I. But I will separate my criticism of them.
I'm 100% happy to jump on board an Eich's political positions hate train, and I probably share the resentment. But I will not jump on a Brave hate train just because Eich is associated with it. I'm happy to blast Brave over technical mistakes it makes (I avoided it for a long time until BAT was deemphasized), but I won't transfer that frustration into a personal attack on Eich. They can and should be treated separately.
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You got me, I guess? But don't tell my POC SO that I've been happily married to for >10 years.
Seriously though, this is the kind of extreme take I'm pushing back on. I strongly disagree with the Lemmy devs' politics, yet here I am on their platform. I've even contributed bug fixes. I strongly disagree with Eich's politics, yet I use Brave as my backup browser. Why? It meets my technical requirements. Firefox is my main browser though.
I'm not a centrist either, whatever that means, but I guess of you average out my extreme takes it could look that way. Conservatives call me socialist, Progressives call me far right, so I guess the middle of that is centrist?
For what it's worth, I agree 100%. I'm awfully tired of this whole "everyone who disagrees with me is a nazi/KKK" extremism.
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Those are good reasons to ditch a product. Yet, at the same time, inside the Apple ecosystem this is the only browser that allows cross platform watching of yt without any ads, therefore suffocating Google and the fat cat MKBHD influencers from income.
So it’s like an evil to tame another evil to me atm.
Of course the best path forward would be to ditch both Brave and yt and then just get Nebula/patreon or something for serious content browsing.
I’m curious though: if I just use Brace only with a few yt tabs open and never open the new empty tab or visit another site, does Brave get any revenue from me?
inside the Apple ecosystem this is the only browser that allows cross platform watching of yt without any ads
Not true. You can block ads with an extension in Safari.
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If you want to block youtube ads, I think it is really the only option as of now. Adguard can be downloaded on the app store and it does a mediocre job blocking ads, but the placeholder space for them remains and it straight up fails to block some for me. I am stuck with brave for now until something better comes along.
Safari has Wipr which blocks YouTube ads
