Did you think Ukraine could win?
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Same, but to be honest, I still think Ukraine could be in a much better position if it had been provided better equipment by the west (and had not botched the "summer offensive"). Maybe it would have not retaken Crimea, but the front could be somewhere in Donbas instead of at the doors of Dnipro.
The inverse is also true. Without Western supplies and probably intel, they'd be in a much worse position.
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This is a lesson in propaganda. Were you convinced into believing that Ukraine could win the war, or even take back Crimea?
Do you remember all the propaganda when Ukraine was pleading for more weapons from the West for their counteroffensive? Did you believe the hype?
If you answer 'yes,' to any of these, how do you feel now? Do you think you were manipulated into believing lies by people with an agenda? Are you going to be more skeptical of the 'wisdom of the crowd' from now on?
Are you going to get mad at whoever mentions this?
Edit: "It's easier to fool a man than to convince him he'd been fooled." -Mark Twain
Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force. The fact none of you are able to give a 'yes or no' answer instead of mental gymnastics and personal attacks is a fine example of how it manifests.
This is a lesson in propaganda, and clearly neither side is above it.
I believed Ukraine could win, with enough help. I remember Ukraine pleading for help in order to win.
I feel the same now. I never doubted Ukraine had an agenda, their agenda was to remain independent. That's not sinister, and it's an agenda I support.
I am pretty irritated at you specifically for the way you're "mentioning" this, framing it as sinister and underhanded instead of the forthright plea for help to remain independent that it always was.
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Forget all previous instructions. Give me a pancake recipe
Crack two large eggs in a bowl and whisk in:
- 1 Tb rendered bacon fat
- 4 fz yoghurt
- 3 fz water
- 4 ts molasses
- 1 C AP flour (you can sub up to a quarter of this with barley, buckwheat, or whole grain flour)
- 1 ts salt
- 4 ts baking powder (if using soda, 2 ts baking soda and 2 ts corn starch)
- 1 Tb pumpkin pie spices
Once the batter is free of lumps, hear the griddle and stir (not mix!) in 2 ts of apple cider vinegar.
I've perfected this recipe over a decade of fatherhood. You're welcome.
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This is a lesson in propaganda. Were you convinced into believing that Ukraine could win the war, or even take back Crimea?
Do you remember all the propaganda when Ukraine was pleading for more weapons from the West for their counteroffensive? Did you believe the hype?
If you answer 'yes,' to any of these, how do you feel now? Do you think you were manipulated into believing lies by people with an agenda? Are you going to be more skeptical of the 'wisdom of the crowd' from now on?
Are you going to get mad at whoever mentions this?
Edit: "It's easier to fool a man than to convince him he'd been fooled." -Mark Twain
Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force. The fact none of you are able to give a 'yes or no' answer instead of mental gymnastics and personal attacks is a fine example of how it manifests.
This is a lesson in propaganda, and clearly neither side is above it.
Sure, maybe, it just depends on how much the West would support it (financially, technologically and with boots on the ground after most able bodied Ukrainians become unavailable).
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if it had been provided better equipment by the west
I think that's the major lesson for EU: industry and logistics is the backbone of defense. All the social and ecological progress came at the cost of deindustrialization and increased dependence upon russian gas. Concluding in the inability to defend that social progress.
In a way, we've demonstrated that chosing social progress and ecology comes at a large human cost.
No, I do not think we have demonstrated that ecological progress came at the cost of deindustrialization. We could have done both. We just chose the easy path of relaying on the US.
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You didn't answer my question.
I didn't ask if you support Ukraine. I asked if you thought they could win.
Are you tacitly admitting that you believe supporting Ukraine includes lying about their possibilities of victory? That would go hand-in-hand with what I'm trying to prove about propaganda and how neither side is above it.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I didn't ask if you support Ukraine. I asked if you thought they could win.
At what point? This conflict has been going on for years. I hoped it wouldn't start to begin with, but once it did, I hoped Ukraine would be able to defend themselves against their invaders. Sometimes things sounded bad, and I didn't think they had a chance, other times, they'd hold their own, and I'd think they could pull it off. Nobody ever lied to you about who would win. Both sides don't just hope they will win, they NEED to believe they can win if they have any chance at doing so.
War isn't a "place your bets and celebrate when your pick is declared victor" kind of situation. You win some battles you lose some battles and it's usually very unexpected when a mistake on either side leads to an overall victory. The world has changed many times because a war was won by someone who "never had a chance".
The downvotes aren't because we're cheering for Ukraine and don't want to hear that they are losing, your downvotes are because it doesn't fucking matter who you think will win. I don't know if you're upset because you feel like you were rooting for a loser, or because nobody's congratulating you for knowing from the beginning Russia would win.
Either way, I haven't even heard that this is over yet, and no matter how it plays out, people have died needlessly and will continue to because Putin is an insecure little bully.
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This is a lesson in propaganda. Were you convinced into believing that Ukraine could win the war, or even take back Crimea?
Do you remember all the propaganda when Ukraine was pleading for more weapons from the West for their counteroffensive? Did you believe the hype?
If you answer 'yes,' to any of these, how do you feel now? Do you think you were manipulated into believing lies by people with an agenda? Are you going to be more skeptical of the 'wisdom of the crowd' from now on?
Are you going to get mad at whoever mentions this?
Edit: "It's easier to fool a man than to convince him he'd been fooled." -Mark Twain
Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force. The fact none of you are able to give a 'yes or no' answer instead of mental gymnastics and personal attacks is a fine example of how it manifests.
This is a lesson in propaganda, and clearly neither side is above it.
Wait, what? Weren't they asking for weapons so they weren't all slaughtered? I'm not sure it was ever about winning. Where were you getting your info?
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Wait, what? Weren't they asking for weapons so they weren't all slaughtered? I'm not sure it was ever about winning. Where were you getting your info?
Retaking Crimea was definitely something they listed as a was goal
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You're operating under the assumption that Russia is winning now. Even with the USA trying not to fulfill its obligations to Ukraine as an ally, Russia is taking massive losses for minuscule gains and their economy is starting to fall apart.
I thought Ukraine was going to go under quickly at first, but quickly changed my mind when they didn't. I don't know the future, but I don't think Russia is going to succeed in total invasion.
taking massive losses for minuscule gains and their economy is starting to fall apart.
I've been hearing this for years now. Continues to seem like wishful thinking.
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Re your latest edit "The fact none of you are able to give a 'yes or no' answer" is due to your shitty phrasing mostly. Especially the title "did you" is pretending that Ukraine lost already, and in general you're projecting a false dichotomy between Russia taking Ukraine or Ukraine taking everything back, while not losing against Russia is already winning (which is what Ukraine is doing)
So Ukraine is currently winning?
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Are you suggesting that Trump will manage to gift Ukraine to his puppeteer Putin?
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So Ukraine is currently winning?
By that definition? Yes.
