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  3. Trump can pull the plug on the internet, and Europe can’t do anything about it

Trump can pull the plug on the internet, and Europe can’t do anything about it

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  • C [email protected]

    Ya ok but this isn't a doomsday thing, we used to build our own servers before and lots of people know how to do it still.

    All AWS and the like do is remove the hardware for the consumer and add some APIs.

    Doesn't sound as scary to me as the article paints. The only hard part would be the migration 😅

    S This user is from outside of this forum
    S This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote on last edited by
    #26

    If the USA switches off cloud services for the EU, that's a short-term problem. Really bad short term, but after a month or so everything is back up and running.

    O 1 Reply Last reply
    2
    • B [email protected]

      The hardware is here. The entire hecking infrastructure is here. Making it work might not be as easy as flipping a switch, but it is definitely not impossible lol

      J This user is from outside of this forum
      J This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote on last edited by
      #27

      would probably take a month or two

      1 Reply Last reply
      1
      • D [email protected]

        This sounds a lot like, “build your own servers and topple another US industry.”

        T This user is from outside of this forum
        T This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote on last edited by
        #28

        Honestly, as an American living in Silicon Valley, I would be overjoyed if Europe became the primary kickstarter for open source alternatives to the existing US corporate infrastructure, that bends to the knees of the Federal government. Even here at home, myself and some of my co-workers aren't too keen on the existing status quo tools because there are too many caveats - from rent seeking subscriptions to the inability to verify if something is tampered with.

        In the same way Valve saw how having all their eggs in the Windows basket led them to dive head first into linux development, I hope the EU's realization of the risks in the US tech sector lead it to developing unified, well funded OSS alternatives. I would certainly install them.

        M 1 Reply Last reply
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        • B [email protected]

          Trump is back — and with him, the risk that the U.S. could unplug Europe from the digital world.

          Donald Trump’s return to the White House is forcing Europe to reckon with a major digital vulnerability: The U.S. holds a kill switch over its internet.

          As the U.S. administration raises the stakes in a geopolitical poker game that began when Trump started his trade war, Europeans are waking up to the fact that years of over-reliance on a handful of U.S. tech giants have given Washington a winning hand.

          The fatal vulnerability is Europe’s near-total dependency on U.S. cloud providers.

          Cloud computing is the lifeblood of the internet, powering everything from the emails we send and videos we stream to industrial data processing and government communications. Just three American behemoths — Amazon, Microsoft, and Google — hold more than two-thirds of the regional market, putting Europe’s online existence in the hands of firms cozying up to the U.S. president to fend off looming regulations and fines.

          D This user is from outside of this forum
          D This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote on last edited by [email protected]
          #29

          Just some stupid doom bait.

          If it would get to cable cutting between US and Europe then we have much bigger problems than slow web apps. If Europe would ever get to that it definitely has enough cloud providers for essential services. Around 90% of all bandwidth is entertainment.

          W 1 Reply Last reply
          21
          • B [email protected]

            Misleading title. It's really about cloud services. And Europe is already working on making itself independent of American cloud services.

            mothra@mander.xyzM This user is from outside of this forum
            mothra@mander.xyzM This user is from outside of this forum
            [email protected]
            wrote on last edited by
            #30

            Thanks for sparing me the clickbait

            1 Reply Last reply
            8
            • D [email protected]

              Just some stupid doom bait.

              If it would get to cable cutting between US and Europe then we have much bigger problems than slow web apps. If Europe would ever get to that it definitely has enough cloud providers for essential services. Around 90% of all bandwidth is entertainment.

              W This user is from outside of this forum
              W This user is from outside of this forum
              [email protected]
              wrote on last edited by
              #31

              who said slow web apps. EU hosting providers could step in probably, but where is exactly all the data stored currently? even assuming that most orgs do proper, working backups, restoring them and setting up their systems for the new providers would still tame a lot of time

              K 1 Reply Last reply
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              • L [email protected]

                What does this mean, exactly? Sounds like "Trump could end Europe's internet access", but I'm sure wise Lemmy experts could chime in to clarify this means "Trump could disconnect Europe from the US, internet-wise", which tbh don't sound that bad. Sure hoping it's the latter

                isokiero@sopuli.xyzI This user is from outside of this forum
                isokiero@sopuli.xyzI This user is from outside of this forum
                [email protected]
                wrote on last edited by
                #32

                It's the latter. But as a crapload of our everyday services depend on US companies and their servers it would be a service outage we've never seen before. Big US companies (Microsoft, AWS, Google, Meta..) could technically mitigate at least some effects if it's just the actual connectivity which is missing but if they're forced to shut down all European services it's a whole another matter.

                For your everyday consumer it would mean missing a lot of streaming services, email, personal backups of your photos on cloud services and stuff like that. On some cases even access to their bank accounts would be lost. Depending on your usage patterns a majority of your digital life could vanish overnight. For companies it would be even worse, a ton of them rely on AWS and other services to keep their business running and all that would come crashing down and a massive amount of them would not have workforce, knowledge nor resources (money mostly) to switch over to something else. Also a lot of tax paid service rely on M365 and other cloud based stuff so they would be affected too, but maybe/hopefully not quite as badly as commercial side. Also, our credit card processors are mostly US (Visa and Mastercard) so a ton of money transfers would be halted as well.

                So, it would be pretty much a digital catastrophe on government, commercial and consumer fronts for majority of the people. Technically there's nothing we couldn't rebuild on our own, but it would take at least months and more likely several years to get everything back online and the bill for that would be astronomical. And if it's a total kill-switch for US services then Europe would need new mobile operating systems to replace Android/IOS, new OS for their computers as Windows wouldn't work anymore and so on. And on top of that, GPS would go too, but with Galileo that might not be the biggest problem around. And also a ton of other stuff I can't remember right off the bat.

                Sure, US would be stranded on the internet (and in the real world too at least to some point) after that and EU/UN/some other entity would take the role which is now on ICANN (and the same for other administrative entities). US would of course get a massive economical hit as well by losing all European customers, but on the worst case that would pretty much mean that the Europe's internet access, at least as we know it now, would end and something else would be built on the ashes.

                But hey, at least I personally wouldn't have a problem to find a new job should I want to.

                L 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • S [email protected]

                  If the USA switches off cloud services for the EU, that's a short-term problem. Really bad short term, but after a month or so everything is back up and running.

                  O This user is from outside of this forum
                  O This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #33

                  For big entities sure. But SMEs without dedicated IT and relying on the likes of squarespace would have a really bad time.

                  S 1 Reply Last reply
                  1
                  • B [email protected]

                    Trump is back — and with him, the risk that the U.S. could unplug Europe from the digital world.

                    Donald Trump’s return to the White House is forcing Europe to reckon with a major digital vulnerability: The U.S. holds a kill switch over its internet.

                    As the U.S. administration raises the stakes in a geopolitical poker game that began when Trump started his trade war, Europeans are waking up to the fact that years of over-reliance on a handful of U.S. tech giants have given Washington a winning hand.

                    The fatal vulnerability is Europe’s near-total dependency on U.S. cloud providers.

                    Cloud computing is the lifeblood of the internet, powering everything from the emails we send and videos we stream to industrial data processing and government communications. Just three American behemoths — Amazon, Microsoft, and Google — hold more than two-thirds of the regional market, putting Europe’s online existence in the hands of firms cozying up to the U.S. president to fend off looming regulations and fines.

                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                    [email protected]
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #34

                    Time for EU to start a new web, WWWUS. World-Wide-Without-....

                    V 1 Reply Last reply
                    1
                    • B [email protected]

                      The hardware is here. The entire hecking infrastructure is here. Making it work might not be as easy as flipping a switch, but it is definitely not impossible lol

                      M This user is from outside of this forum
                      M This user is from outside of this forum
                      [email protected]
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #35

                      Given the permissive and, well, stupid business practices that the U.S. allows, I’m sure a shell corporation there, an ownership transfer there, and you’ve got a de facto foreign owned company that’s every bit as answerable to the corporation, although not necessarily the U.S. government. I’m sure the shareholders won’t care so long as the stock price still goes up.

                      Those sorts of changes could presumably be executed much faster than working through the court challenges of nationalizing companies, or of building new facilities/swapping to new providers.

                      Not that I’m advocating sticking with what would still ostensibly be U.S.-backed tech.
                      I live in the U.S., and I ply my trade in tech and tech-adjacent sectors. I wouldn’t prefer it if the country I live in becomes a technological backwater and is passed on by the world, but I also am sort of reaching a point where I think perhaps FAFO.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • O [email protected]

                        For big entities sure. But SMEs without dedicated IT and relying on the likes of squarespace would have a really bad time.

                        S This user is from outside of this forum
                        S This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #36

                        They'd just migrate to some EU alternative: https://alternativeto.net/software/squarespace/?origin=eu

                        Might not be super easy and they might not get the same results, bit if there's no squarespace it will do.

                        O 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • W [email protected]

                          who said slow web apps. EU hosting providers could step in probably, but where is exactly all the data stored currently? even assuming that most orgs do proper, working backups, restoring them and setting up their systems for the new providers would still tame a lot of time

                          K This user is from outside of this forum
                          K This user is from outside of this forum
                          [email protected]
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #37

                          where is exactly all the data stored currently?

                          Hopefully in the EU, as the EU-US DPF is garbage and should be repealed just like the previous "Privacy Shield" attempts.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          2
                          • S [email protected]

                            They'd just migrate to some EU alternative: https://alternativeto.net/software/squarespace/?origin=eu

                            Might not be super easy and they might not get the same results, bit if there's no squarespace it will do.

                            O This user is from outside of this forum
                            O This user is from outside of this forum
                            [email protected]
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #38

                            Sure, as long as someone’s taught them about backups, and they have them, and they’re up to date.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • B [email protected]

                              Trump is back — and with him, the risk that the U.S. could unplug Europe from the digital world.

                              Donald Trump’s return to the White House is forcing Europe to reckon with a major digital vulnerability: The U.S. holds a kill switch over its internet.

                              As the U.S. administration raises the stakes in a geopolitical poker game that began when Trump started his trade war, Europeans are waking up to the fact that years of over-reliance on a handful of U.S. tech giants have given Washington a winning hand.

                              The fatal vulnerability is Europe’s near-total dependency on U.S. cloud providers.

                              Cloud computing is the lifeblood of the internet, powering everything from the emails we send and videos we stream to industrial data processing and government communications. Just three American behemoths — Amazon, Microsoft, and Google — hold more than two-thirds of the regional market, putting Europe’s online existence in the hands of firms cozying up to the U.S. president to fend off looming regulations and fines.

                              J This user is from outside of this forum
                              J This user is from outside of this forum
                              [email protected]
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #39

                              I'm pretty sure all three of those companies host server farms in Europe. I doubt they would give them up just to fluff Trump.

                              C 1 Reply Last reply
                              7
                              • B [email protected]

                                Time for EU to start a new web, WWWUS. World-Wide-Without-....

                                V This user is from outside of this forum
                                V This user is from outside of this forum
                                [email protected]
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #40

                                WWWEU.. Pronounced as "Wii U". 💅

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                4
                                • B [email protected]

                                  Trump is back — and with him, the risk that the U.S. could unplug Europe from the digital world.

                                  Donald Trump’s return to the White House is forcing Europe to reckon with a major digital vulnerability: The U.S. holds a kill switch over its internet.

                                  As the U.S. administration raises the stakes in a geopolitical poker game that began when Trump started his trade war, Europeans are waking up to the fact that years of over-reliance on a handful of U.S. tech giants have given Washington a winning hand.

                                  The fatal vulnerability is Europe’s near-total dependency on U.S. cloud providers.

                                  Cloud computing is the lifeblood of the internet, powering everything from the emails we send and videos we stream to industrial data processing and government communications. Just three American behemoths — Amazon, Microsoft, and Google — hold more than two-thirds of the regional market, putting Europe’s online existence in the hands of firms cozying up to the U.S. president to fend off looming regulations and fines.

                                  W This user is from outside of this forum
                                  W This user is from outside of this forum
                                  [email protected]
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #41

                                  The US officially giving tech execs military ranks is.... interesting. One of the stronger reasons to avoid companies like Huawei, was that the CCP had direct military ties / agents working within Huawei. The argument in favour of US tech companies in comparison, was that while they may have agreements with the US military, they were at arms length. Now they aren't, and the rationale seems to be attempting to shift to "just trust us", while they openly start major wars/conflicts and support genocidal actions in the middle east.

                                  idk. If I were involved in the decision making for any critical area, I'd avoid the hell out of foreign controlled anything in my regular stacks at this point. Even if it means you have some efficiency hits until there may be an in-country provider available. It wouldn't matter who the other country is at this point, as the US going awol is something most wouldn't have 'bet' on like a decade ago, but here we are.

                                  J P S 3 Replies Last reply
                                  13
                                  • isokiero@sopuli.xyzI [email protected]

                                    It's the latter. But as a crapload of our everyday services depend on US companies and their servers it would be a service outage we've never seen before. Big US companies (Microsoft, AWS, Google, Meta..) could technically mitigate at least some effects if it's just the actual connectivity which is missing but if they're forced to shut down all European services it's a whole another matter.

                                    For your everyday consumer it would mean missing a lot of streaming services, email, personal backups of your photos on cloud services and stuff like that. On some cases even access to their bank accounts would be lost. Depending on your usage patterns a majority of your digital life could vanish overnight. For companies it would be even worse, a ton of them rely on AWS and other services to keep their business running and all that would come crashing down and a massive amount of them would not have workforce, knowledge nor resources (money mostly) to switch over to something else. Also a lot of tax paid service rely on M365 and other cloud based stuff so they would be affected too, but maybe/hopefully not quite as badly as commercial side. Also, our credit card processors are mostly US (Visa and Mastercard) so a ton of money transfers would be halted as well.

                                    So, it would be pretty much a digital catastrophe on government, commercial and consumer fronts for majority of the people. Technically there's nothing we couldn't rebuild on our own, but it would take at least months and more likely several years to get everything back online and the bill for that would be astronomical. And if it's a total kill-switch for US services then Europe would need new mobile operating systems to replace Android/IOS, new OS for their computers as Windows wouldn't work anymore and so on. And on top of that, GPS would go too, but with Galileo that might not be the biggest problem around. And also a ton of other stuff I can't remember right off the bat.

                                    Sure, US would be stranded on the internet (and in the real world too at least to some point) after that and EU/UN/some other entity would take the role which is now on ICANN (and the same for other administrative entities). US would of course get a massive economical hit as well by losing all European customers, but on the worst case that would pretty much mean that the Europe's internet access, at least as we know it now, would end and something else would be built on the ashes.

                                    But hey, at least I personally wouldn't have a problem to find a new job should I want to.

                                    L This user is from outside of this forum
                                    L This user is from outside of this forum
                                    [email protected]
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #42

                                    Well, worse than it seems, then.

                                    I'd be willing to experiment, try and block US connections to and from my computer, but I could probably deal with it, seeing as I don't use as much US stuff as the average person. Companies also probably have servers in other places, meaning perhaps they'd connect through elsewhere, and, in such a test scenario, me having control, I could allow the connections whenever I want or need.

                                    To have everyone lose internet connection to/from US, would be real bad, it seems. Worse than I thought (though granted, I did not think much, clearly). Though if it were for a few hours, maybe let people see the consequences of their dependence, and what life would be like without these services. Guve 'em a taste.

                                    All the more reason to not rely solely on the US and maybe adopt / help fund alternatives.

                                    On another topic, if anyone knows how to block connections based on location, feel free to enlighten me. I'd actually enjoy trying out the aforementioned experiment, but NextDNS doesn't have such feature

                                    isokiero@sopuli.xyzI 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • B [email protected]

                                      Misleading title. It's really about cloud services. And Europe is already working on making itself independent of American cloud services.

                                      capuccino@lemmy.worldC This user is from outside of this forum
                                      capuccino@lemmy.worldC This user is from outside of this forum
                                      [email protected]
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #43

                                      latam is doomed

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • L [email protected]

                                        Well, worse than it seems, then.

                                        I'd be willing to experiment, try and block US connections to and from my computer, but I could probably deal with it, seeing as I don't use as much US stuff as the average person. Companies also probably have servers in other places, meaning perhaps they'd connect through elsewhere, and, in such a test scenario, me having control, I could allow the connections whenever I want or need.

                                        To have everyone lose internet connection to/from US, would be real bad, it seems. Worse than I thought (though granted, I did not think much, clearly). Though if it were for a few hours, maybe let people see the consequences of their dependence, and what life would be like without these services. Guve 'em a taste.

                                        All the more reason to not rely solely on the US and maybe adopt / help fund alternatives.

                                        On another topic, if anyone knows how to block connections based on location, feel free to enlighten me. I'd actually enjoy trying out the aforementioned experiment, but NextDNS doesn't have such feature

                                        isokiero@sopuli.xyzI This user is from outside of this forum
                                        isokiero@sopuli.xyzI This user is from outside of this forum
                                        [email protected]
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #44

                                        Companies also probably have servers in other places, meaning perhaps they’d connect through elsewhere

                                        Depends on company, but that worst case scenario is that all US companies would shut down all their services in Europe overnight. Every big player has datacenters around the world and if it's just the traffic between continents which is shut down then the effect is way less radical, absolute majority of Europe already connects to datacenters near them even if they use Microsoft/Google/Amazon/etc services.

                                        For example with my employer dropping every US based company would be a hell of a work, specially if it's needed in a hurry. We, as well as a ton of others, rely on Microsoft services for all kinds of communication and should that go away we'd need to make quite a few phone calls around couple of continents just to set up a common ground on where and how to start building new infrastructure and how to keep communication lines open.

                                        Though if it were for a few hours, maybe let people see the consequences of their dependence, and what life would be like without these services

                                        Few hours is a short time. There's some problems around the globe all the time which affect various services on various levels for few hours all the time. Few days of complete blackout and C-suits start to really sweat (plus it costs significant amounts of money via lost productivity).

                                        if anyone knows how to block connections based on location, feel free to enlighten me

                                        You'll need a firewall/router which can do geoblocking. Based on quick search at least pfsense seems to have some options available. If I were to try that I'd set up a pfsense on a virtual machine, set up geoblock on that and use that as a gateway for my testing devices while leaving the rest of the network as it is so that I could limit/choose what devices may behave strangely and still have normal functionality for the rest.

                                        I assume there's a ton of other options too besides pfsense, but the key words are 'geoblock', 'firewall' and 'router' or something around that. Also I assume that most of the stuff you find explains how to block incoming traffic based on geoIP, but it should be relatively simple to adapt those for outgoing traffic as well.

                                        L 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • B [email protected]

                                          The hardware is here. The entire hecking infrastructure is here. Making it work might not be as easy as flipping a switch, but it is definitely not impossible lol

                                          L This user is from outside of this forum
                                          L This user is from outside of this forum
                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #45

                                          The hardware isn’t the hard part, but I get your point

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