Why is the manosphere on the rise? UN Women sounds the alarm over online misogyny
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FYI, the manosphere is replete with non-white males, and that is not even including the inherent male chauvinism in other cultures. I’m sorry but the critique on whiteness is a little lazy intellectually.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I think its got merit. Do you recall Steve Bannon when he was just starting out and I quote : "In describing gamers, Bannon said, These guys, these rootless white males, had monster power. ... It was the pre-reddit. It's the same guys on (one of a trio of online message boards owned by IGE) Thottbot who were [later] on reddit" and other online message boards where the alt-right flourished, Bannon said"
this was him talking about World of Warcraft....
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I think it's far more fundamental than that.
You've got a generation of young men who did what they were supposed to culturally: went to school, got good grades, went to college, never broke any laws, and their choices in life are permanent debt and struggling to afford a roach-infested studio apartment, living with their parents, or joining the military to survive. Here in the United States minimum wage won't even buy you a cup of coffee in large swaths of the country. (And 2/3 of the states still use that as their standard.)
The social contract has been broken, and for the first time, you've got a generation who are not going to live more fulfilled and enriched lives than their parents largely by no fault of their own.
Of course they're pissed. Governments should be addressing this, but it's more fashionable to blame young men instead, and the right-wingers are the only ones willing to admit there are fundamental economic crises for men.
I read the first paragraph, and as a woman, I feel the same!
Solidarity!Poverty isn't just for men
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Who do you think runs the fucking world already...its us, men.
I hope you realize how alienating a sentence like this is, for someone who is as stomped by society as many women are.
This narrative is exactly what prevents any form of class solidarity, and I really can't understand how someone can write it in the same comment where class struggle is raised.
hope you realize how alienating a sentence like this is, for someone who is as stomped by society as many women are.
How? How am I alienating anyone by telling them something they already know?
This narrative is exactly what prevents any form of class solidarity
What the fuck are you talking about? Did you not read the rest of the post..... My point was that if being a man isn't the inherent source of your struggle then it must not be the real problem.....the real problem is class war.
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In my experience the problem isn't the masculinity influencers. Those are just the symptom of misandry in media and a near-total lack of support in society for men, especially young men. When you go on social media almost all discussion concerning men is about how they are the root of all evil, and everything they do is wrong. It's a never ending stream of shaming with no clear way out. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't: If you try to defend yourself or talk about your own problems as a man, it is labeled as misogyny. "Be vulnerable and open up" they say but if you do it's "don't center men you privileged fuck" or "you're being a crybaby".
All this pressure is an impossible equation to solve for a young man who has been pushed by misandrists into insecurity and longs to be accepted in his community. Not just because society's demands are internally inconsistent, but because they clash with patriarchal ideals among the typical women you'll meet IRL.
I'm past 40 and while in my head I still consider myself progressive, I used to show it much more when I was younger. I was honest about my insecurities, I would try not to take up too much space as a man, would try to split responsibilities equally, and so on. At every turn this has caused me problems in relationships, not least with my wife of 10 years who left me for some muscular macho guy because she "doesn't feel like I can take care of her".
So now, while I wish society was different, I try to balance on the needle of acting like I'm not as progressive as I am so women don't "get the ick", while not tripping into what would be labeled misogyny. It's an extremely difficult game to play and it frustrates me to no end that this is where we're at. I'm moving in soon with a woman who I've been dating for a couple of years and it's clear that she desires that I take a leadership position in the home, whereas I'm just longing for a partner who will share the burden with me instead of becoming my subject. But I feel like I have to play that game or she'll eventually lose interest. Too many women want someone to replace their dad.
Bell Hooks wrote about this already in 2003. But somehow it is completely lost on these UN Women pundits that nothing will change unless everybody (including women) change. You can't just blame it on "masculinity influencers". Why are these influencers gaining popularity? Because they offer some way out, some positive message for young men who are completely starved for positive role models.
I am convinced that a woman's voice will count 10x more than the manosphere, if it offers compassion and guidance rather than hate. But such voices are extremely rare.
FWIW, the "men's health awareness month" has brought me some hope in this. It's the first time in a decade that I've seen women in media stand up to defend and show compassion for men, and I think young men will suck that up like a sponge.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I’m past 40 and while in my head I still consider myself progressive, I used to show it much more when I was younger. I was honest about my insecurities, I would try not to take up too much space as a man, would try to split responsibilities equally, and so on. At every turn this has caused me problems in relationships, not least with my wife of 10 years who left me for some muscular macho guy because she “doesn’t feel like I can take care of her”.
It always seems to come down to traditional gender roles being dehumanizing. Men traditionally aren't allowed to be "weak", women traditionally aren't allowed to be "strong" (but there's been some work done on that). It took me a while to fully internalize (not just know) that, first and foremost, both are people with all the complexities that come with that. I personally would rather die alone than live every day in fear that I'm not pretending well enough to fit a stereotype. I'm probably over-dramatizing though, just really can't stand stereotyping.
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Oh dear.
The Catholic church still to this day refuses to ordain any women into the priesthood: men only.
Not my world, but so what? There are also the
Roman Catholic Women Priestswho felt left out so made up their own story.Ask a girl in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia if there’s any formal patriarchy when they try to go to school, or drive, or go outside without head to toe covering, or simply go outside unaccompanied by a man.
Again, not my world. But... Have you asked if they want to go to school, drive, go outside, or have you assumed they do? Not being a dick but there are very different opinions generally held by women of different cultures and religions that contrast with others - who's right? (Historically people die over such issues). Also, beyond what Fox news states, there are schools in middle Eastern countries, some are voluntary. Such issues are very complicated and are not black or white.
In the west there are hundreds of industry bodies, clubs and business societies blah blah blah.
So? "The Garrick Club is a private members' club in London, founded in 1831 as a club for "actors and men of refinement to meet on equal terms" - you're whining that a men-only club is not ok, but a women-only club is?
A string of strawman arguments. I think you think your opinions make you look cool though. But it's ok, hate me for my opinions because you can only accept those that are marketed to you.
These exaples are "not my world", what does that even mean? You live on a different world? Examples have to be specifically from your zip code to be relevant discussion on a global web forum do they?
Did you actually argue maybe all women are ok with being oppressed in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan? Because many have famously vociferously opposed it, up to the point of being executed and being shot in the head. One of them works at the UN now, putting together work like whats in this very article.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24379018The Garrick Club has incredibly powerful members including kings and prime ministers and hundred of members of Parliament. If you cannot see how excluding women from such a club is an issue of patriarchy then you are really not trying very hard to understand anything here.
And of course, everything is a strawman argument nowadays..
A strawman argument is stating a false weaker argument (or premise) of your opponent, to then argue against more easily than their real argument.
Your claim: there is no 'formal' system [of patriarchy]
Me: here's several examples of formal systems of patriarchy.
You: I am being strawmanned!
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Ohio. Cincinnati, specifically. It's not 100 to 0 women resources to men, it's more like 55 to 5. There are some cold weather shelters for men, and places to eat, but mostly there are zero beds unless you're willing to sign up for a drug testing program, and even then there are costs and limited spaces. There are quite a few women's shelters in the area.
I would agree here. Shelters are hell for both genders.
I was homeless with a three months old. Without a kid, I would have done as I always did and couch hopped or slept on benches til I got back on my feet, but I had a baby and wanted to get stable fresh out of a DV situation.
The shelter I stayed at had a "single" floor with both men and womed (divided by rooms) and the top floor was families.
Everyone likes helping a single moms out. And I made it out, got stable and its been 12 years without homelessness. It was because of those programs.
I know a lot of men slip through the cracks. I have met a handful who chose homelessness because thats where they find thier community. I get that, the most community I ever felt was in low places surrounded by others also in low places.
I've also met men like my bio father, who after years of addiction, homelessness, violence and prison time, was able to reach resources and get housed and remains comfortable.
These resources, especially now, are being cut. It's definitely scary. I do think there are a lot of well, Walter Whites of the world, where rather than take help and admit vulnerability, they do it their own way, on thier own terms, fuck the consequences. All because being vulnerable and admitting you need help are like, anti-masculine traits in our current culture.
I think there are a lot of things that lead to men being homeless. There are programs, but usually worh strict requirements and some people, you just cant box them.
I will say for people with children, there are many more programs available.
To note, you don't see many homeless women, and there is reason you don't see them. When my mother was homeless she lived deep in the woods and moved around constantly as to avoid being detected. You wouldn't have known she was homeless, if only because she had a car, but still.
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And as usual, in an act of irony, men are the biggest misandrist, and my biggest source of pain. I don't like this social contract where I get fucked over no matter what. I'm just going to abandon it, and lead a massive exile with me. I already have a solar panel, and plan to get more.
And as usual, in an act of irony, men are the biggest misandrist, and my biggest source of pain
I think you're confusing misandry with people just not liking you. It's exceedingly rare for men to be harassed or oppressed simply for their gender.
I don't like this social contract where I get fucked over no matter what
Lol, what are you talking about? Everyone keeps saying this shit, but no one is giving any real world examples. I am a man, if there is some social contract that sets men up to lose, why am I not experiencing it? I'm married, I have friends who are women, I work with several women, I don't have any problems with the opposing sex? Maybe it's a you problem and not a societal one?
I'm just going to abandon it, and lead a massive exile with me. I already have a solar panel, and plan to get more.
Lol, your username is apt. You think you're going to be the Moses of incels and lead a bunch of morons off to the woods with nothing but a solar panel?
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And a Missisipi Lawmaker proposed making ejaculation without fertilisation of an egg illegal.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraception_Begins_at_Erection_Act
Sometimes these things are done for effect and aren't entirely serious. Please learn to tell the difference.
wrote last edited by [email protected]These are lawmakers who have the power to change your lives & your instinct is treat any issue that may affect men's lives in a negative way as a joke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBQybc2l-gU
E.g: Trump is sending foreign men to El Salvador to a torture camp.
Yeah, it's only funny when it happens to othet men, when your govt does this to YOU, you will be singing a different tune.I think I'll speak up for men here, You need a Men-Only Lemmy/Mbin/PieFed instance. So that you can at least speak up about your issues without being laughed at or downplayed by misandrists
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If that’s your take on this thread then you’re just as complicit as the rest of these incels.
It's my take on my own contributions. Note that those didn't include "defending some guy", it really was an exhaustive list. How you managed to get that wrong in a post in which you apologised about getting something wrong is something you'll have to ask your dead horse, I suppose.
my take on my own contributions. Note that those didn't include "defending some guy", it really was an exhaustive list.
An exhaustive list of babying and validating young men who are being radicalized. You aren't challenging their beliefs, you're just patting yourself on the back for being tolerant of the intolerable. Which is ironic for someone who seems to be obsessed with an analogy about high horses.
your dead horse
Lol, because you keep beating it with a stick. Try a new analogy never once and a while.
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Or maybe it feels like oppression because it is. Nobody in this thread has their mind open to the possibility that structural changes disadvantaging (young, predominantly white) men can happen even when other groups are continuing to be held back.
maybe it feels like oppression because it is.
Oppression being committed by who exactly? What demographic currently holds the reigns of power in our governmental and economic hierarchy?
Nobody in this thread has their mind open to the possibility that structural changes disadvantaging (young, predominantly white) men can happen even when other groups are continuing to be held back.
What you don't understand is that if they are coming for young white men now, it's only because they've run out of minorities to disenfranchise. So if everyone nis getting abused now......it's a class struggle.
The reason no one is responding to the blooming problems of young white men is because those have been problems everyone else has already been experiencing. And guess what, the majority of young white men didn't ever want to hear about the problems of everyone else.
Now that you are experiencing the same issue....does this make you more empathetic to the troubles of your fellow workers......No, you bitch and moan about anyone trying to say it's not just a problem for young white men. You still care nothing about class solidarity, you just want to bitch about your own demographic being kicked out of the free treat club.
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Dadvocate would be a good source for this stuff especially if you don't fancy your watch history to get infested by misogynists. Just a gal who doesn't pull guard.
Quick sidebar, I'm just some random dude reading this thread but thanks for introducing me to Dadvocate. She rules, she's now my "Pedro Pascal," goals if you will, gives me hope lmao.
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it's just as nonsensical as claiming that most bullshit is done by men
no, it is factual? the vast majority of violent crimes are committed by men.
wrote last edited by [email protected]This wikipedia article lists all different studies why. The short answer is patriarchy - men have more occasion to commit crimes and it's more acceptable from gender role point of view for men to do so.
It also list studies of crimes and offenses where women are found to be more often perpetrators than men, including a very comprehensive guide to domestic violence studies.
To sum it up - you're both correct, men do more bullshit, women have similar capacity for it, we are expected to express the bullshit differently.
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These exaples are "not my world", what does that even mean? You live on a different world? Examples have to be specifically from your zip code to be relevant discussion on a global web forum do they?
Did you actually argue maybe all women are ok with being oppressed in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan? Because many have famously vociferously opposed it, up to the point of being executed and being shot in the head. One of them works at the UN now, putting together work like whats in this very article.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24379018The Garrick Club has incredibly powerful members including kings and prime ministers and hundred of members of Parliament. If you cannot see how excluding women from such a club is an issue of patriarchy then you are really not trying very hard to understand anything here.
And of course, everything is a strawman argument nowadays..
A strawman argument is stating a false weaker argument (or premise) of your opponent, to then argue against more easily than their real argument.
Your claim: there is no 'formal' system [of patriarchy]
Me: here's several examples of formal systems of patriarchy.
You: I am being strawmanned!
Lol, just like I wrote below earlier, anything where an aggressive woman perceives a man as being in charge, it becomes part of the patriarchy and is a target of ridicule and abuse for such angry women. You bang on about the Garrick club as if you're pissy because it exists, whilst defending women-only clubs.
The Garrick Club has incredibly powerful members including kings and prime ministers and hundred of members of Parliament. If you cannot see how excluding women from such a club is an issue of patriarchy then you are really not trying very hard to understand anything here.
Or, maybe you can't accept man-only clubs because you've been manipulated into not doing so, but can accept women-only because "omg oppression they need a safe space wah wah".
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Honestly, as a women, so it's not my opinion that matters, but even that meme/joke/trend that "men are simple creatures", "keep your belly fully and balls empty and we're happy" ect, like, is that not demeaning to men?
The men in my life are just as complicated and multifaceted as anyone else. These kinds of jokes, or online rhetoric, to me, feel like y'all are calling men simple and dumb.
The men in my life are not simple or dumb.
Honestly, as a women, so it’s not my opinion that matters, but even that meme/joke/trend that “men are simple creatures”, “keep your belly fully and balls empty and we’re happy” etc, like, is that not demeaning to men?
Your opinion matters as much and you should be publicly challenging such shows - as a woman. Is it demeaning? If you have to ask, the answer is most likely, 'yes'! Would it be demeaning with shows where women characters are stupid and only good for sex? Would it be demeaning with black characters who shout all the time, eat chicken and watermelon and so on...the abusive stereotypes could continue. What's disappointing for me are that the actors/actresses who play the roles are setting equality back many years for a quick short-lived buck.
I do find the upvote / downvote count on my question interesting though!
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Mate, what many of those so-called gururs of "manosphere" do is called capitalising on misery of others, not solving. Which I have already covered in my comment above.
Don't think for a second that I'm approving of Andrew Tate types lol. I'm just saying if there wasn't incentive then they wouldn't be able to profit off of it. Maybe we're using different definitions of incentive. Or maybe you mean to actually make a true working long term fix for men as opposed to just content that monetizes off of it.
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hope you realize how alienating a sentence like this is, for someone who is as stomped by society as many women are.
How? How am I alienating anyone by telling them something they already know?
This narrative is exactly what prevents any form of class solidarity
What the fuck are you talking about? Did you not read the rest of the post..... My point was that if being a man isn't the inherent source of your struggle then it must not be the real problem.....the real problem is class war.
Saying "it's us, men" (to rule the world) is inherently a narrative that avoid discussing the class division, because being a man is not being part of a social class.
I might have misunderstood what you meant, but this argument is put forward quite often by certain groups that lost completely touch with the class struggle, hence my remark.
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Saying "it's us, men" (to rule the world) is inherently a narrative that avoid discussing the class division, because being a man is not being part of a social class.
I might have misunderstood what you meant, but this argument is put forward quite often by certain groups that lost completely touch with the class struggle, hence my remark.
Saying "it's us, men" (to rule the world) is inherently a narrative that avoid discussing the class division,
I wasn't the one who claimed white young men were being systemically oppressed...... If you are examining class division through gender then it is an impossible topic to avoid.
You can't have it both ways. I've been saying the whole time it doesn't make sense to examine class struggle through the lens of gender, my claim about "us men" was made to highlight the contradictory nature of the original claim.
because being a man is not being part of a social class.
That is what I've been saying the whole time..
The reason I brought it up was to dispel the claim that white men were being specifically targeted in the first place.
Did you not read the context of the post?
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That statistics is bullshit that would be 66% of all young men
White, Gen z men literally went 67% for Trump
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In my experience the problem isn't the masculinity influencers. Those are just the symptom of misandry in media and a near-total lack of support in society for men, especially young men. When you go on social media almost all discussion concerning men is about how they are the root of all evil, and everything they do is wrong. It's a never ending stream of shaming with no clear way out. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't: If you try to defend yourself or talk about your own problems as a man, it is labeled as misogyny. "Be vulnerable and open up" they say but if you do it's "don't center men you privileged fuck" or "you're being a crybaby".
All this pressure is an impossible equation to solve for a young man who has been pushed by misandrists into insecurity and longs to be accepted in his community. Not just because society's demands are internally inconsistent, but because they clash with patriarchal ideals among the typical women you'll meet IRL.
I'm past 40 and while in my head I still consider myself progressive, I used to show it much more when I was younger. I was honest about my insecurities, I would try not to take up too much space as a man, would try to split responsibilities equally, and so on. At every turn this has caused me problems in relationships, not least with my wife of 10 years who left me for some muscular macho guy because she "doesn't feel like I can take care of her".
So now, while I wish society was different, I try to balance on the needle of acting like I'm not as progressive as I am so women don't "get the ick", while not tripping into what would be labeled misogyny. It's an extremely difficult game to play and it frustrates me to no end that this is where we're at. I'm moving in soon with a woman who I've been dating for a couple of years and it's clear that she desires that I take a leadership position in the home, whereas I'm just longing for a partner who will share the burden with me instead of becoming my subject. But I feel like I have to play that game or she'll eventually lose interest. Too many women want someone to replace their dad.
Bell Hooks wrote about this already in 2003. But somehow it is completely lost on these UN Women pundits that nothing will change unless everybody (including women) change. You can't just blame it on "masculinity influencers". Why are these influencers gaining popularity? Because they offer some way out, some positive message for young men who are completely starved for positive role models.
I am convinced that a woman's voice will count 10x more than the manosphere, if it offers compassion and guidance rather than hate. But such voices are extremely rare.
FWIW, the "men's health awareness month" has brought me some hope in this. It's the first time in a decade that I've seen women in media stand up to defend and show compassion for men, and I think young men will suck that up like a sponge.
I legit can't believe that a comment which unironically contains the phase "media misandry" and recounting a tale about getting left behind for chad is getting upvoted on the fediverse. Damn it reall did not take long for this place to jump the shark.
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When you go on social media almost all discussion concerning men is about how they are the root of all evil, and everything they do is wrong. It's a never ending stream of shaming with no clear way out. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't: If you try to defend yourself or talk about your own problems as a man, it is labeled as misogyny. "Be vulnerable and open up" they say but if you do it's "don't center men you privileged fuck" or "you're being a crybaby".
This is a sentiment often repeated by manosphere influencers and there’s no actual tangible evidence it exists and I think that’s the real issue. The influencers aren’t at all a symptom of a problem men are facing, they are selling men on a problem that doesn’t exist (for money).
I have never at any point in my life (which encompasses the entire lifespan of the internet) been subjected to any significant amount of misandry online or in person. When men talk about experiencing misandry online, it’s almost always in the context of them making comments on content geared towards a women’s issue and invalidating the women’s issue while simultaneously making it about themselves.
You mention being a progressive at heart, forced to cloak yourself in more perceived masculine features as if they are at odds with each other. I too am a progressive and I have never felt like that’s been at odds with my masculinity. I’ve never had a problem taking leadership roles, using force to solve problems, even violently when necessary, and I know how to put my emotions aside in order to get things done. At the same time I have no problems sharing my feelings or being vulnerable with the people I love and trust. I’ve never had an issue following a woman or being in an equal partnership like my marriage is. You can be all these things and my experience with women is that the right ones love you for it.
The real issue is solely man-created and exists solely in the mind, and the manosphere exists to tell you in its not in your mind, that’s it’s real, and that it’s everyone’s fault but your own. They monetize your attention, they sell you supplements and books, none of which are actually designed to help you solve your problems, because if you escape your cycle of self destruction, the money stops.
You mentioned that you’re dating a woman and you feel like you have to hide who you are for her to love you? My friend that’s not you being masculine, nor is it you being “progressive”.
Real masculinity, the kind that these influencers refuse to sell you, is having enough self respect to be yourself. If you want to open up and share your feelings with someone then that’s what you’re damn well going to do. And if she isn’t ok with that then she can find someone else.
Yeah this thread is fucking wild. I can't believe people here are up voting literal manoshpere shit. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.
