[PSA] Lemmy account deletion is a mess
-
Out of curiosity: What's a reason to delete all the content? I don't want to imply you shouldn't be able to do so... But I often find it very annoying when people delete large quantities of stuff. Because that also deletes the comments I made, which took me time to write. It deletes my bookmarks. And sometimes people regularly wipe their history which removes technical questions along with the correct answers and other material that might prove useful to other people, if it weren't deleted...
I'd like to understand the perspectives and two sides of that coin.
I hate it so much when people delete useful information.
-
My point is how could you ever count on deletion when the content is being federated?
Even if Lemmy devs made account deletion easy and cascade deletes your content, all it takes is one server run by an archivist and that content is never going away.
It seems inherently unfixable in a federated system, like trying to unsend an email.
My point is he's not asking for it to be deleted from the entire internet.
You're just here to jerk yourself off over "uhm, actually! nothing is ever deleted from the internet!" which also isn't true.
-
I wonder if it might lead to some issues with European laws at some point
Yeah, that's what I also wonder. Lemmy is still too small to attract any attention from regulators, but I wonder how the GDPR would work with federation.
There are some differences with normal social media though: every instance is managed by different people, so in theory you would have to ask every federated instance for your data to be deleted.
Or, maybe, posting on the fediverse may be compared to spreading pamphlets with your messages to many different people; you can't expect a reasonable way to "recall" everything you shared with the public.
I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. But it's going to be interesting. Meta, in the meantime, decided not to risk it at all and their fediverse integration just doesn't work in the EU.
-
The problem isn't in the system, but in your expectations.
You're starting with a wrong assumption that things publicly available on the internet can simply be deleted. That's not how any of this works.Maybe that's our fault. Maybe we weren't clear enough back when you started using the internets. But It's true, deleting things online is very difficult. You shouldn't ever expect it to be simple or easy.
I think Lemmy should display a simple warning on sign-up that everything you post on the fediverse can't be reasonably ever deleted, because it's going to be shared to possibly infinite different parties.
-
Please, call me Steve.
Reality holds no responsibility to conform to anyone's expectations. However, my decades in the reality of the internet have shaped my expectations. I never expect anything on the internet to be truly deleted. Accounts are locked, but they and everything associated with them still exists. If you contact support, and sufficiently prove you're you, they can reinstate your account. In the rare cases they can't, they make it abundantly clear, and explain why they can't, in the deletion process.
Unless Lemmy specifically states all changes are guaranteed to be federated, I'd assume by default none will. I'll reiterate, reality has no responsibility to conform to my expectations. Deletions may in fact be federated sometimes.
But that's immaterial, since I don't post anything with the expectation I'll ever be able to delete it. An expectation built upon reality, not the reverse. An expectation I'm trying to impress on you.
Please, call me Steve.
Shut up, Steve.
-
I think Lemmy should display a simple warning on sign-up that everything you post on the fediverse can't be reasonably ever deleted, because it's going to be shared to possibly infinite different parties.
The current delete function states:
"Warning: this will permanently delete your account. The deletion may not always federate to other instances."The first part, I'm almost certain isn't actually true.
The second part basically confirms what you're asking for.Yah. That could be stated explicitly on signup.
But to sum up what I said in other comments here; Not being able to delete things, is like the Internet's version of gravity. Be glad it works, and don't waste effort fighting it. -
My point is he's not asking for it to be deleted from the entire internet.
You're just here to jerk yourself off over "uhm, actually! nothing is ever deleted from the internet!" which also isn't true.
Actually he is. He wants his account deletion to delete all his comments and federate that out. However if that were how it works it would be very misleading to users because they would expect their posts to be deleted across the fediverse when that wouldn't be the case. Some servers would retain that data and not comply with deleting all the comments.
-
Out of curiosity: What's a reason to delete all the content? I don't want to imply you shouldn't be able to do so... But I often find it very annoying when people delete large quantities of stuff. Because that also deletes the comments I made, which took me time to write. It deletes my bookmarks. And sometimes people regularly wipe their history which removes technical questions along with the correct answers and other material that might prove useful to other people, if it weren't deleted...
I'd like to understand the perspectives and two sides of that coin.
Data privacy (the "right to be forgotten") I'd say is the main reason. Say you realise that you've built up a little to much linkable information about yourself over the years and don't want it readily available for whoever might want to make use of it.
-
Data privacy (the "right to be forgotten") I'd say is the main reason. Say you realise that you've built up a little to much linkable information about yourself over the years and don't want it readily available for whoever might want to make use of it.
Good use-case. Would it suffice to "unlink" the information in that case, instead of deleting it? I think that'd solve both problems. The posts and comments would stay in place for everyone to keep using them, but it'd say "by [deleted user]", so it's forgotten that you (or someone) wrote it.
I'm not sure. And we somehow need to present that to the user without overwhelming them with several options, delete account without data, delete account and unlink content, delete account and content...
-
If at some point you want to delete your account and have your posts and comments be gone, you better delete it all manually before you actually delete the account, because that deletion process does not really work as advertised.
For my main account on world (which runs an outdated lemmy version), it seemed like at least the account deletion was federated so that my user page was no longer browsable from other instances, but none of my posts, comments or images had been deleted, not even on the home instance.
The homie @[email protected] helped me by manually deleting my stuff, but it seems like that has only worked for the home instance, posts and comments seem to still be readable from other instances (except for some of the images that MrKaplan manually deleted too, but that was only possible up to a date not too far in the past because lemmy used to not associate user uploads with the accounts). So my old posts from the world account can be viewed just fine from other instances:
For other instances that are more up to date the process is even worse imo, while locally things seem to get deleted, federation does not seem to happen at all. For example you can still browse my deleted slrpnk or lemmee accounts from other instances just fine:
https://slrpnk.net/u/[email protected]
https://lemm.ee/u/[email protected]
Account deletion in piefed works kinda like the old lemmy system (as on lemmy.world), and nothing gets deleted except the user page (which also seems to get federated), the posts and comments stay up.
Thought this would be interesting to some, if i had known what a mess this would be (obviously expected some federation issues, just not like that), i would have manually deleted everything. I deleted all these accounts in December, maybe this has been addressed somehow in the meantime, personally i'd have trust issues in this process.
I don't see why people get so riled up in the comment section of this post.
Is the original post a legit psa? Definitely.
Will this become problematic with European law at some point? Well at least it's going to be interesting.
Should we care? Seeing as lemmy development is partially funded by the European Commission, definitely!
Should we care for altruistic reasons? Also definitely. This place is supposed to be better than the centralized corporate social media to its users, especially also regarding privacy. It's good practice to set up new accounts every once in a while against doxing and seeing how much of the community on lemmy is built by people who are sensitive to their privacy this is sth we should respect.Should we break down in squabbles here of one instance against another? Please, if I want to hear "all people from place x are bad" I'd just switch on an election debate. Show that your adults. Take your peers and their concerns here seriously. Make something out of it when people raise legit concerns.
Thank you bonjour for bringing up this topic. -
Actually he is. He wants his account deletion to delete all his comments and federate that out. However if that were how it works it would be very misleading to users because they would expect their posts to be deleted across the fediverse when that wouldn't be the case. Some servers would retain that data and not comply with deleting all the comments.
Cheers to the lemmy.nz admin for misleading (very) their users with the futile idea of federation, all across the fediverse, to not just let this funny comment end up in a dead end locally.
-
You're still missing the fundamental reality of the situation.
Stuff online generally doesn't get deleted. And almost never because you want it to. I think the EU passed a law about the "right to be forgotten". But the reality is, that's like fighting gravity. The effort and resources it takes to truly break orbit are far beyond most people's, and even most government's means. Same with truly deleting anything online.
But that's not what is being talked about. I don't think OP is expecting an all or nothing situation. You're talking like you've never deleted anything online
-
But that's not what is being talked about. I don't think OP is expecting an all or nothing situation. You're talking like you've never deleted anything online
Yes.
Op isn't expecting an all or nothing. I'm suggesting they should expect nothing. All isn't even worth talking about.And yes.
I've never deleted anything online. Never had a reason to. If I ever imagined a reason I'd want to delete something, I wouldn't post it to begin with. Because I know I can't delete it. See how that works. So what if I was wrong, or embarrassing, that's part of being human, own you're mistakes and move on. Don't hide them. They are who you were. They are how you got where you are. They're responsible for who you've become. Take pride in the failings of your past. -
Good use-case. Would it suffice to "unlink" the information in that case, instead of deleting it? I think that'd solve both problems. The posts and comments would stay in place for everyone to keep using them, but it'd say "by [deleted user]", so it's forgotten that you (or someone) wrote it.
I'm not sure. And we somehow need to present that to the user without overwhelming them with several options, delete account without data, delete account and unlink content, delete account and content...
Probably a technical consideration (like what if they have an edit timestamp which would allow a dedicated person to find all the comments unlinked at the exact same time), a personal consideration (what if you actually want that information purged as thoroughly as possible), and a legal consideration (sounds like it violates the GDPR)
-
Probably a technical consideration (like what if they have an edit timestamp which would allow a dedicated person to find all the comments unlinked at the exact same time), a personal consideration (what if you actually want that information purged as thoroughly as possible), and a legal consideration (sounds like it violates the GDPR)
Tl;dr: Yes, it's complicated.
Hmmh. I think 1) just means it has to be implemented properly. But you're right. That sounds exactly like something a developer would do. Unlink the information and at the same time add a timestamp that immediately links it again
And I'm not sure about 3) I'd have to read the GDPR again. Afaik it just mandates the user is provided with the ability to do so. Not that it needs to be the default.
And 2) is kind of my question. I suppose a user who is about to delete their account, might not be super relaxed and ready to deal with the intricate details. I mean they could be pissed and want out asap. Or something happened and they need to get it over with, quickly. Either way, it's probably not the right time to bother them with 500 questions and make them learn about the consequences. Though... They need to do the right thing. Once their account is gone, and it turns out they would have liked to delete more (or less), that's not really possible any more (without manual admin intervention). So maybe it's down to: delete everything in any case, and accept that it has a negative effect on the content on the platform.
It also has to be balanced with handling abuse etc since malicious actors use the same features to cover their tracks.
But I'm probably getting way ahead of where we are. OP said deletion doesn't even propagate through the federated network correctly. So realistically, we probably don't need to bother with the details several steps down the line.
-
Good use-case. Would it suffice to "unlink" the information in that case, instead of deleting it? I think that'd solve both problems. The posts and comments would stay in place for everyone to keep using them, but it'd say "by [deleted user]", so it's forgotten that you (or someone) wrote it.
I'm not sure. And we somehow need to present that to the user without overwhelming them with several options, delete account without data, delete account and unlink content, delete account and content...
It doesn't matter. If someone believes they've linked too much and wants to delete it, they should be able to. If someone wants to delete their content for any reason they should be able to.
-
Nothing is ever really deleted on the internet, especially if it was automatically replicated to dozens of other servers.
This is such a goofy take. Yes, obviously you can never be 100% there isn't some copy or archive laying somewhere, but wanting it to be deleted for 99% of the ways people would find it is reasonable. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
-
It doesn't matter. If someone believes they've linked too much and wants to delete it, they should be able to. If someone wants to delete their content for any reason they should be able to.
Honestly? No, they should t be able to blanket delete everything theyve posted on the off chance it's identifiable information
They should have the right to find that info and remove it, but I'm 1000% against people potentially taking down useful information from society and I do not care that people want to whine about their "right" to take their fucking ball back and end the game
So much useful info gone from Reddit because babies didn't want to keep supporting the bad site and now good luck finding it anywhere else
-
Honestly? No, they should t be able to blanket delete everything theyve posted on the off chance it's identifiable information
They should have the right to find that info and remove it, but I'm 1000% against people potentially taking down useful information from society and I do not care that people want to whine about their "right" to take their fucking ball back and end the game
So much useful info gone from Reddit because babies didn't want to keep supporting the bad site and now good luck finding it anywhere else
Exactly. And I sometimes find myself in the position where internet enshittification and content vanishing harms me more than it helps. So I'd like to balance this with the other side of the medal, where people might have legitimate interest to do so. But so far the argument has been "just because". And for me, that argument doesn't tip the scale to their direction. I still have tangible arguments not to over-delete. While the other side seems to be very theoretical.
-
Cheers to the lemmy.nz admin for misleading (very) their users with the futile idea of federation, all across the fediverse, to not just let this funny comment end up in a dead end locally.
How has anyone been mislead
