Yeah I remember saying this when all online communities seemed to be going to discord and people seemed to mainly laugh at me in response at the time.
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Isn't that a client side issue though? Element is just one Matrix client. I haven't used it myself but heard from others that Fluffychat (another Matrix client) is more like Discord.
It is, but Element is still the "Gold standard" Matrix client and the most popular. And if you're going to create a brand new chat protocol, you should make sure that your flagship client measures up to the competition.
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Or Matrix?
According to history:
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Wait till it’s so enshittified it’s unusable, or…
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If it reaches a critical mass… You can't. See: Facebook.
The Fediverse can adopt a few nice communities, but honestly bringing the larger population seems hopeless.
larger population seems hopeless.
But what is the barrier? We have a functioning infrastructure. We need to solve the last piece of the puzzle.
People need an easy way to join!
Mastodon has already shown that this works. Even if they aren't as big as others yet, they still make up about two-thirds of the Fediverse. Now we need to replicate this for Lemmy, Pixelfed, and so on, and share our findings along the way.
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Fun is the least of my concerns. I don't know why people compare the 2 when they have almost nothing in common. One is a chat app and the other is a voice/streaming/community app.
Honestly outside of the incessant pop-ups and upsells and the whole selling everything to AI companies, it's pretty great for private communities.
Your view of Matrix seems a bit weird. AFAIK I can do all the voice/streaming/community in Matrix as well as it's done in Discord.
Also, no, my server isn't slow. matrix.org might be, I don't know.
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I don't think you can for most people that is what is so infuriating right? In my experience people who are entrenched in Discord are completely and utterly entrenched in it, to the point that I have lost contact with a lot of these people effectively since I don't use Discord.
The important choice was with all the community leaders who decided to make the move to discord at crucial moments where they could have NOT done that.
I think any shift off of Discord is also going to have to come from community leaders of organizations, projects, game development communities etc... deciding to move off the platform at crucial decision points.
However, and this is something people who happily pushed their entire lives onto Discord would confidently tell me we could easily do if Discord got bad, everyone isn't just going to straight up leave once they have built their entire digital communication around it...
Now I frequently see game developers complain that they can't accurately get a picture of their playerbase because large categories of players aren't on their discord!! and I have to keep my palm from blowing a hole through my face when the two loudly meet.
The brainworms are so bad that these developers will conclude the issue is with their playerbase not wanting to use Discord instead of it being an issue with DEVELOPERS DECIDING TO COMMUNICATE WITH THEIR PLAYERBASE WITH A SHITTY, EXCLUSIONARY TOOL THAT HAS AWFUL SEARCH.
I can't express how much this gets under my skin, it is like this assumption that if you are even slightly a gamer than you are on Discord all the damn time has become rheified and cemented into place so rigidly that developers are literally tossing away large swaths of their playerbase feedback because they refuse to use a different tool to get feedback and communicate with their community. No forum, no custom website, nothing, Discord or bust.
I have seen the effects in games like Battlebit where it is clear that the developers are catering to only a very small subsection of the playerbase that is very active and prominent on the Discord and it ended up torpedoing the game because changes kept happening that clearly signalled to large sections of the playerbase that they were basically invisible to the developers.
I think your argument relates closely to something I've noticed happening over and over with more than just game developers. Far too often I see people expressing frustration that the Internet doesn't give them more accurate information about the real world. Way too many people, apparently including many of the richest and most powerful people alive, have come to see the Internet as a magical machine that will do anything they want it to do... if only people would use it differently! Like, they legitimately seem to expect the entire population to post their entire lives online, unfiltered, so they can be used as automatons by people they've never even met.
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How do we get them to switch to something like Element?
XMPP / Jabber is better.
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Your view of Matrix seems a bit weird. AFAIK I can do all the voice/streaming/community in Matrix as well as it's done in Discord.
Also, no, my server isn't slow. matrix.org might be, I don't know.
I have a Matrix server. I've also used a half a dozen others. Every one of them you have sit there and stare at it for 5-10 secs and watch the messages roll in every time you open the app.
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Yeah I remember voicing this concern when all online communities seemed to be going to discord and people seemed to mainly laugh at me in response at the time.
Because there hasn't been a single proper alternative until very recently
Discord is a terrible format to manage large, complex communities and projects, I don't know what you mean by an alternative to Discord because my argument is that Discord is shit for organizing.
Discord is great for chat, both voice and text, it is a great live space to have for a community. I don't dispute that. Sure there hasn't been good alternatives to recently for that specific usecase....
What I dispute, and what I am pointing out is that Discord ate forums, it ate all kinds of public, publically accessible formats for online communities that were much more easily searchable and collatable into useful information for everybody.
Discord is a fucking hallway of a thousand fractured silo'd conversations locked behind an account login. I hate Discord for destroying the internet before it which I could freely browse and learn so much more from.
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Yeah I remember voicing this concern when all online communities seemed to be going to discord and people seemed to mainly laugh at me in response at the time.
Because there hasn't been a single proper alternative until very recently
Excuse me, Jabber / XMPP is about as old as I am!
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Discord is a terrible format to manage large, complex communities and projects, I don't know what you mean by an alternative to Discord because my argument is that Discord is shit for organizing.
Discord is great for chat, both voice and text, it is a great live space to have for a community. I don't dispute that. Sure there hasn't been good alternatives to recently for that specific usecase....
What I dispute, and what I am pointing out is that Discord ate forums, it ate all kinds of public, publically accessible formats for online communities that were much more easily searchable and collatable into useful information for everybody.
Discord is a fucking hallway of a thousand fractured silo'd conversations locked behind an account login. I hate Discord for destroying the internet before it which I could freely browse and learn so much more from.
Discord is a terrible format to manage large, complex communities and projects
Terrible how, though? That's exactly what it gets right. You have easy-to-setup roles and channel accesses, onboarding experiences for people joining a larger server, a huge ecosystem of bots for various purposes, etc.
okay, it is bad for not being indexable, but it's good at what it does and it's popular for a reason.
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larger population seems hopeless.
But what is the barrier? We have a functioning infrastructure. We need to solve the last piece of the puzzle.
People need an easy way to join!
Mastodon has already shown that this works. Even if they aren't as big as others yet, they still make up about two-thirds of the Fediverse. Now we need to replicate this for Lemmy, Pixelfed, and so on, and share our findings along the way.
You mean drag them from platforms that have a vested interest in keeping them locked in and squashing competitors like the Fediverse?
In platforms that spend billions on engagement optimization algorithms, with the sole purpose of keeping users addicted, basically with government and business landscape backing?
Look, I’m optimistic about the Fediverse, this is a great refuge in the hellscape that is the internet. But you can’t make people want to change. I've learned this IRL, but see it with (for example) persecuted people continuing to use Twitter even though its owner basically has a gun to their heads. There’s a big gulf between being a fantastic refuge and taking the internet from Facebook and Google. Even if every phone on the planet had an easy button to switch to Fediverse alternatives in one click… many would not take it, and that’s an utter fantasy.
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Yeah I remember saying this when all online communities seemed to be going to discord and people seemed to mainly laugh at me in response at the time.
Fuck Discord
I quite like Discord, but I really only use it for it's original purpose - a place for groups of friends to hang out, play video games with voice chat, and maybe watch shows/movies together. For these purposes, Discord is great!
I have found very little value in how Discord gets used for anything and everything else - forums for video games, support channels for businesses, 1000+ member communities, etc etc. All of those use cases feel better served through traditional websites and forums... but it's so much easier to set up a Discord server for the average person it has turned into a weird default.
In that regard, fuck Discord.
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I have a Matrix server. I've also used a half a dozen others. Every one of them you have sit there and stare at it for 5-10 secs and watch the messages roll in every time you open the app.
Sorry but this sounds like a skill issue.
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I have a Matrix server. I've also used a half a dozen others. Every one of them you have sit there and stare at it for 5-10 secs and watch the messages roll in every time you open the app.
I can't speak to your server but I don't have that issue. It was solved with Sliding Sync quite some time ago.
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Element needs to be better. Discord is awesome with the way it auto-plays looping videos/gifs and has animated emojis.
Seriously: That's all they'd need to do. The element devs need to focus on fun.
What would likely help a lot if it was easier to get set up, particularly on a VPS or something like that. Small businesses and or larger community projects would be more likely to jump on possibly.
Another thing is ability to easily join, a lot of the above just have an easy link to join their discord server, not sure how easy matrix on boarding is currently as I still haven't gotten my instance functional yet (not even half done with synapse configuration seemingly)
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Sorry but this sounds like a skill issue.
Loading times are a skill issue? You could at least try to make sense while you're being a dick.
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Wait till it’s so enshittified it’s unusable
Discord is going public soon, so start the timer...
Discord is scary popular though, like Facebook popular. I am really scared the enshittification will stick hard, like it has for Facebook.
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I can't speak to your server but I don't have that issue. It was solved with Sliding Sync quite some time ago.
Sliding sync did nothing.
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Element needs to be better. Discord is awesome with the way it auto-plays looping videos/gifs and has animated emojis.
Seriously: That's all they'd need to do. The element devs need to focus on fun.
Fun is always great to capture the masses!
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Matrix is notorious for its poor performance with large/numerous groups. They keep claiming to improve it, but it's still bad.
I mean, it's great that it works for you, but be honest: isn't your tolerance for technological friction a bit higher than the average bear's? People complain that Mastodon is too hard, and Matrix is ten times worse to sign up for and use.
I hate to say it, but Matrix is never going to be mainstream. Its UX is bad and it seems like it's too bloated to fix. If I tried to get people to move from Discord to Matrix, they'd never take me seriously again. It was hard enough getting people to move from Facebook Messenger to Signal.
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Yeah it's probably just a client side issue but the OP mentioned Element, specifically
I just wanted to point out that Element is no fun! No fun at all!
It works and it works great for what it does. Even voice and streaming are great with Element. It's just got a terrible, no-fun interface and pointless limitations on things like looping videos. You can't even configure it to make them play properly (as in, automatic and endlessly, the way they were meant to be played!
).Looping videos and animated emojis are super fun ways to chat with people. Even in professional settings! It really breaks up the humdrum and can motivate people to chat and share more.
Element is all serious all the time and going into a chat channel there feels like a chore.
