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  3. agi graph slop, wtf does goverment collapse have to do with ai?

agi graph slop, wtf does goverment collapse have to do with ai?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Lemmy Shitpost
lemmyshitpost
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  • Y [email protected]

    Reasoning literally requires consciousness because it’s a fundamentally normative process. What computers do isn’t reasoning. It’s following instructions.

    P This user is from outside of this forum
    P This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote on last edited by
    #17

    Reasoning is approximated enough with matrix math and filter algorithms.

    It can fly drones, dodge wrenches.

    The AGI that escapes wont be the ideal philosopher king, it will be the sociopathic teenage rebel.

    Y 1 Reply Last reply
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    • P [email protected]

      Reasoning is approximated enough with matrix math and filter algorithms.

      It can fly drones, dodge wrenches.

      The AGI that escapes wont be the ideal philosopher king, it will be the sociopathic teenage rebel.

      Y This user is from outside of this forum
      Y This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote on last edited by [email protected]
      #18

      Okay, we can create the illusion of thought by executing complicated instructions. But there’s still a difference between a machine that does what it’s told and one that thinks for itself. The fact that it might be crazy is irrelevant, since we don’t know how to make it, at all, crazy or not.

      communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC 1 Reply Last reply
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      • V [email protected]

        Escapes where ? There is nowhere to go. There are fucking people everywhere.

        rickyrigatoni@lemm.eeR This user is from outside of this forum
        rickyrigatoni@lemm.eeR This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote on last edited by
        #19

        Fucking everywhere legal in 2027? Maybe the future isn't so dark after all.

        1 Reply Last reply
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        • Y [email protected]

          That’s fine, but most people (engaged in this discussion) aren’t interested in an illusion. When they say AGI, they mean an actual mind capable of rationality (which requires sensitivity and responsiveness to reasons).

          Calculators, LLMs, and toasters can’t think or understand or reason by definition, because they can only do what they’re told. An AGI would be a construct that can think for itself. Like a human mind, but maybe more powerful. That requires subjective understanding (intuitions) that cannot be programmed. For more details on why, see Gödel's incompleteness theorems. We can’t even axiomatize mathematics, let alone human intuitions about the world at large. Even if it’s possible we simply don’t know how.

          communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
          communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote on last edited by [email protected]
          #20

          If it quacks like a duck it changes the entire global economy and can potentially destroy humanity. All while you go "ah but it's not really reasoning."

          what difference does it make if it can do the same intellectual labor as a human? If I tell it to cure cancer and it does will you then say "but who would want yet another machine that just does what we say?"

          your point reads like complete psuedointellectual nonsense to me. How is that economically valuable? Why are you asserting most people care about that and not the part where it cures a disease when we ask it to?

          Y 1 Reply Last reply
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          • communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC [email protected]

            If it quacks like a duck it changes the entire global economy and can potentially destroy humanity. All while you go "ah but it's not really reasoning."

            what difference does it make if it can do the same intellectual labor as a human? If I tell it to cure cancer and it does will you then say "but who would want yet another machine that just does what we say?"

            your point reads like complete psuedointellectual nonsense to me. How is that economically valuable? Why are you asserting most people care about that and not the part where it cures a disease when we ask it to?

            Y This user is from outside of this forum
            Y This user is from outside of this forum
            [email protected]
            wrote on last edited by [email protected]
            #21

            A malfunctioning nuke can also destroy humanity. So could a toaster, under the right circumstances.

            The question is not whether we can create a machine that can destroy humanity. (Yes.) Or cure cancer. (Maybe.) The question is whether we can create a machine that can think. (No.)

            What I was discussing earlier in this thread was whether we (scientists) can build an AGI. Not whether we can create something that looks like an AGI, or whether there’s an economic incentive to do so. None of that has any bearing.

            In English, the phrase “what most people mean when they say” idiomatically translates to something like “what I and others engaged in this specific discussion mean when we say.” It’s not a claim about how the general population would respond to a poll.

            Hope that helps!

            communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC 1 Reply Last reply
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            • Y [email protected]

              A malfunctioning nuke can also destroy humanity. So could a toaster, under the right circumstances.

              The question is not whether we can create a machine that can destroy humanity. (Yes.) Or cure cancer. (Maybe.) The question is whether we can create a machine that can think. (No.)

              What I was discussing earlier in this thread was whether we (scientists) can build an AGI. Not whether we can create something that looks like an AGI, or whether there’s an economic incentive to do so. None of that has any bearing.

              In English, the phrase “what most people mean when they say” idiomatically translates to something like “what I and others engaged in this specific discussion mean when we say.” It’s not a claim about how the general population would respond to a poll.

              Hope that helps!

              communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
              communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
              [email protected]
              wrote on last edited by [email protected]
              #22

              If there's no way to tell the illusion from reality, tell me why it matters functionally at all.

              what difference does true thought make from the illusion?

              also agi means something that can do all economically important labor, it has nothing to do with what you said and that's not a common definition.

              Y 1 Reply Last reply
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              • Y [email protected]

                Okay, we can create the illusion of thought by executing complicated instructions. But there’s still a difference between a machine that does what it’s told and one that thinks for itself. The fact that it might be crazy is irrelevant, since we don’t know how to make it, at all, crazy or not.

                communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
                communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
                [email protected]
                wrote on last edited by
                #23

                Being able to decide its own goals is a completely unimportant aspect of the problem.

                why do you care?

                Y 1 Reply Last reply
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                • D [email protected]

                  I hope we get flying cars from blade runner too

                  W This user is from outside of this forum
                  W This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #24

                  "sorry you haven't paid your monthly driver's permit fee"
                  Car drops out of the sky

                  D 1 Reply Last reply
                  1
                  • communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC [email protected]

                    Being able to decide its own goals is a completely unimportant aspect of the problem.

                    why do you care?

                    Y This user is from outside of this forum
                    Y This user is from outside of this forum
                    [email protected]
                    wrote on last edited by [email protected]
                    #25

                    The discussion is over whether we can create an AGI. An AGI is an inorganic mind of some sort. We don’t need to make an AGI. I personally don’t care. The question was can we? The answer is No.

                    communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC 1 Reply Last reply
                    1
                    • V [email protected]

                      Escapes where ? There is nowhere to go. There are fucking people everywhere.

                      L This user is from outside of this forum
                      L This user is from outside of this forum
                      [email protected]
                      wrote on last edited by [email protected]
                      #26

                      AI will reside in the North of Sweden, as the place with the least amount of humans.
                      In fact runaway AIs are already making a colony there a not far away from Kungsleden.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC [email protected]

                        If there's no way to tell the illusion from reality, tell me why it matters functionally at all.

                        what difference does true thought make from the illusion?

                        also agi means something that can do all economically important labor, it has nothing to do with what you said and that's not a common definition.

                        Y This user is from outside of this forum
                        Y This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote on last edited by [email protected]
                        #27

                        Matter to whom?

                        We are discussing whether creating an AGI is possible, not whether humans can tell the difference (which is a separate question).

                        Most people can’t identify a correct mathematical equation from an incorrect one, especially when the solution is irrelevant to their lives. Does that mean that doing mathematics correctly “doesn’t matter?” It would be weird to enter a mathematical forum and ask “Why does it matter?”

                        Whether we can build an AGI is just a curious question, whose answer for now is No.

                        P.S. defining AGI in economic terms is like defining CPU in economic terms: pointless. What is “economically important labor”? Arguably the most economically important labor is giving birth, raising your children, and supporting your family. So would an AGI be some sort of inorganic uterus as well as a parent and a lover? Lol.

                        That’s a pretty tall order, if AGI also has to do philosophy, politics, and science. All fields that require the capacity for rational deliberation and independent thought, btw.

                        communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • W [email protected]

                          "sorry you haven't paid your monthly driver's permit fee"
                          Car drops out of the sky

                          D This user is from outside of this forum
                          D This user is from outside of this forum
                          [email protected]
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #28

                          fithy corps coluding with the feds

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • R [email protected]

                            The book Scythe had a good portrayal of a scentient ai and its reasons for taking over the government. It's just backstory so i don't think it's spoilers, still gunna tag it.

                            ::: spoiler spoiler
                            The Thunderhead ai was created to help humans and make them content. It realized pretty quickly governments ran counter to that idea. So it got rid of all of them. Now it's a utopia. Actual utopia or as close as you can get most are content and live their lives enjoying them. The massive problems with the system are due to humans not the Thunderhead.
                            :::

                            C This user is from outside of this forum
                            C This user is from outside of this forum
                            [email protected]
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #29

                            Lots of science fiction does. I read Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect (full text legally available online) and collapse of governments was a natural consequence of an all-powerful AI... although that was only possible because of fictional physics, giving you a much-needed reality check.

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • Y [email protected]

                              Matter to whom?

                              We are discussing whether creating an AGI is possible, not whether humans can tell the difference (which is a separate question).

                              Most people can’t identify a correct mathematical equation from an incorrect one, especially when the solution is irrelevant to their lives. Does that mean that doing mathematics correctly “doesn’t matter?” It would be weird to enter a mathematical forum and ask “Why does it matter?”

                              Whether we can build an AGI is just a curious question, whose answer for now is No.

                              P.S. defining AGI in economic terms is like defining CPU in economic terms: pointless. What is “economically important labor”? Arguably the most economically important labor is giving birth, raising your children, and supporting your family. So would an AGI be some sort of inorganic uterus as well as a parent and a lover? Lol.

                              That’s a pretty tall order, if AGI also has to do philosophy, politics, and science. All fields that require the capacity for rational deliberation and independent thought, btw.

                              communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
                              communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
                              [email protected]
                              wrote on last edited by [email protected]
                              #30

                              Most people can’t identify a correct mathematical equation from an incorrect one

                              this is irrelevant, we're talking about something where nobody can tell the difference, not where it's difficult.

                              What is “economically important labor”? Arguably the most economically important labor is giving birth, raising your children, and supporting your family. So would an AGI be some sort of inorganic uterus as well as a parent and a lover? Lol.

                              it means a job. That's obviously not a job and obviously not what is meant, an interesting strategy from one who just used "what most people mean when they say"

                              That’s a pretty tall order, if AGI also has to do philosophy, politics, and science. All fields that require the capacity for rational deliberation and independent thought, btw.

                              it just has to be at least as good as a human at manipulating the world to achieve its goals, I don't know of any other definition of agi that factors in actually meaningful tasks

                              an agi should be able to do almost any task a human can do at a computer. It doesn't have to be conscious and I have no idea why or where consciousness factors into the equation.

                              Y 2 Replies Last reply
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                              • Y [email protected]

                                The discussion is over whether we can create an AGI. An AGI is an inorganic mind of some sort. We don’t need to make an AGI. I personally don’t care. The question was can we? The answer is No.

                                communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
                                communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
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                                wrote on last edited by
                                #31

                                You've arbitrarily defined an agi by its consciousness instead of its capabilities.

                                Y 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC [email protected]

                                  You've arbitrarily defined an agi by its consciousness instead of its capabilities.

                                  Y This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Y This user is from outside of this forum
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                                  wrote on last edited by [email protected]
                                  #32

                                  Your definition of AGI as doing “jobs” is arbitrary, since the concept of “a job” is made up; literally anything can count as economic labor.

                                  For instance, people frequently discuss AGI replacing governments. That would require the capacity for leadership. It would require independence of thought and creative deliberation. We simply cannot list (let alone program) all human goals and values. It is logically impossible to axiomatize our value systems. The values would need to be intuited. This is a very famous result in mathematics called Gödel's first incompleteness theorem.

                                  To quote Gödel himself: “We cannot mechanize all of our intuitions.”

                                  Alan Turing drew the same conclusion a few years later with The Halting Problem.

                                  In other words, if we want to build a machine that shares our value system, we will need to do so in such a way that it can figure out our values for itself. How? Well, presumably by being conscious. I would be happy if we could do so without its being conscious, but that’s my point: nobody knows how. Nobody even knows where to begin to guess how. That’s why AGI is so problematic.

                                  communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC [email protected]

                                    Most people can’t identify a correct mathematical equation from an incorrect one

                                    this is irrelevant, we're talking about something where nobody can tell the difference, not where it's difficult.

                                    What is “economically important labor”? Arguably the most economically important labor is giving birth, raising your children, and supporting your family. So would an AGI be some sort of inorganic uterus as well as a parent and a lover? Lol.

                                    it means a job. That's obviously not a job and obviously not what is meant, an interesting strategy from one who just used "what most people mean when they say"

                                    That’s a pretty tall order, if AGI also has to do philosophy, politics, and science. All fields that require the capacity for rational deliberation and independent thought, btw.

                                    it just has to be at least as good as a human at manipulating the world to achieve its goals, I don't know of any other definition of agi that factors in actually meaningful tasks

                                    an agi should be able to do almost any task a human can do at a computer. It doesn't have to be conscious and I have no idea why or where consciousness factors into the equation.

                                    Y This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Y This user is from outside of this forum
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                                    wrote on last edited by [email protected]
                                    #33

                                    Economics is descriptive, not prescriptive. The whole concept of “a job” is made up and arbitrary.

                                    You say an AGI would need to do everything a human can. Great, here are some things that humans do: love, think, contemplate, reflect, regret, aspire, etc. these require consciousness.

                                    Also, as you conveniently ignored, philosophy, politics, science are among the most important non-family-oriented “jobs” we humans do. They require consciousness.

                                    Plus, if a machine does what it’s told, then someone would be telling it what to do. That’s a job that a machine cannot do. But most of our jobs are already about telling machines what to do. If an AGI is not self-directed, it can’t tell other machines what to do, unless it is itself told what to do. But then someone is telling it what to do, which is “a job.”

                                    communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC [email protected]

                                      Most people can’t identify a correct mathematical equation from an incorrect one

                                      this is irrelevant, we're talking about something where nobody can tell the difference, not where it's difficult.

                                      What is “economically important labor”? Arguably the most economically important labor is giving birth, raising your children, and supporting your family. So would an AGI be some sort of inorganic uterus as well as a parent and a lover? Lol.

                                      it means a job. That's obviously not a job and obviously not what is meant, an interesting strategy from one who just used "what most people mean when they say"

                                      That’s a pretty tall order, if AGI also has to do philosophy, politics, and science. All fields that require the capacity for rational deliberation and independent thought, btw.

                                      it just has to be at least as good as a human at manipulating the world to achieve its goals, I don't know of any other definition of agi that factors in actually meaningful tasks

                                      an agi should be able to do almost any task a human can do at a computer. It doesn't have to be conscious and I have no idea why or where consciousness factors into the equation.

                                      Y This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Y This user is from outside of this forum
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                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #34

                                      we're talking about something where nobody can tell the difference, not where it's difficult.

                                      You’re missing the point. The existence of black holes was predicted long before anyone had any idea how to identify them. For many years, it was impossible. Does that mean black holes don’t matter? That we shouldn’t have contemplated their existence?

                                      Seriously though, I’m out.

                                      communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • Y [email protected]

                                        we're talking about something where nobody can tell the difference, not where it's difficult.

                                        You’re missing the point. The existence of black holes was predicted long before anyone had any idea how to identify them. For many years, it was impossible. Does that mean black holes don’t matter? That we shouldn’t have contemplated their existence?

                                        Seriously though, I’m out.

                                        communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
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                                        wrote on last edited by [email protected]
                                        #35

                                        The existence of black holes has a functional purpose in physics, the existence of consciousness only has one to our subjective experience, and not one to our capabilities.

                                        if I'm wrong list a task that a conscious being can do that an unconscious one is unable to accomplish.

                                        Y 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • Y [email protected]

                                          Economics is descriptive, not prescriptive. The whole concept of “a job” is made up and arbitrary.

                                          You say an AGI would need to do everything a human can. Great, here are some things that humans do: love, think, contemplate, reflect, regret, aspire, etc. these require consciousness.

                                          Also, as you conveniently ignored, philosophy, politics, science are among the most important non-family-oriented “jobs” we humans do. They require consciousness.

                                          Plus, if a machine does what it’s told, then someone would be telling it what to do. That’s a job that a machine cannot do. But most of our jobs are already about telling machines what to do. If an AGI is not self-directed, it can’t tell other machines what to do, unless it is itself told what to do. But then someone is telling it what to do, which is “a job.”

                                          communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
                                          communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyzC This user is from outside of this forum
                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #36

                                          A job is a task one human wants another to accomplish, it is not arbitrary at all.

                                          philosophy, politics, science are among the most important non-family-oriented “jobs” we humans do. They require consciousness.

                                          i don't see why they do, a philosophical zombie could do it, why not an unconscious AI? alphaevolve is already making new science, I see no reason an unconscious being with the abilty to manipulate the world and verify couldn't do these things.

                                          Plus, if a machine does what it’s told, then someone would be telling it what to do. That’s a job that a machine cannot do. But most of our jobs are already about telling machines what to do. If an AGI is not self-directed, it can’t tell other machines what to do, unless it is itself told what to do. But then someone is telling it what to do, which is “a job.”

                                          yes but you can give it large, vague goals like "empower humanity, do what we say and minimize harm." And it will still do them. So what does it matter?

                                          Y 1 Reply Last reply
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