Yet another "anti-military" article from people who clearly don't understand the military.
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You'd think we'd have masks that don't completely fail to do their job because you have .002 femtometers of hair sticking out of your face.
Maybe I should be a mask designer.
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At this point we're getting nowhere... When you say shit like "With chemical weapons?"... Yes we're talking about literal war... where soldiers are the ones following these policies. This is literally the primary place chemical weapons are used as far as all of known recorded history.
OSHA, ANSI, all branches of DOD and the study agree with me... You can argue whatever you want, I'm disengaging.
OSHA paragraph (g)(1) of 29 CFR 1910.134
ANSI Z88.10You basically admitted to breaking OSHA rules though. So congrats!
You basically admitted to breaking OSHA rules though. So congrats!
Lol, you really have issues with reading comprehension..... OSHA doesn't care as long as it does not impede function of the seal. You determine the fit of the seal by doing a fit test. If you do a fit test and pass, it's not impeding the seal.
"The Respiratory Protection standard, paragraph 29 CFR 1910.134(g)(1)(i)(A), states that respirators shall not be worn when facial hair comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function. Facial hair is allowed as long as it does not protrude under the respirator seal, or extend far enough to interfere with the device's valve function. Short mustaches, sideburns, and small goatees that are neatly trimmed so that no hair compromises the seal of the respirator usually do not present a hazard and, therefore, do not violate paragraph 1910.134(g)(1)(i)."
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Yet another "anti-military" article from people who clearly don't understand the military.
Hi.. It's me again. Army Veteran. Showing up in the comments of another military article because there is clear and obvious reasons why this is happening that has nothing to do with Trump (Not sure why so many other commenters jump on this every time). Claiming that this is racist is crazy when the purpose and reason for it is innately to stop people from dying unnecessarily. If you think this is racism, I'd argue that it's not. I'd also argue that ignoring the medical problem can actually kill those you think you're protecting from "racism".
This is not new. While I was in (primarily under Obama) people with problematic beard hair would need to be medically evaluated. At one point I was evaluated as razor bumps kept coming up for a little while (cleared up eventually though). The primary reason for the military caring about it is because NBC masks need to fit particularly well in order for them to do their jobs. For those who don't know what NBC means, gas masks. Nothing sucks more than doing gas chamber training and getting a mask that doesn't fit well. Considering the current world capabilities, it would be a disaster to send a unit out and have them all get nailed with mustard gas and have just the "black" (quoting this because it's inaccurate, I saw many people need a profile over bad shaves. a plurality were actually black) people die because with hair, you can't get a good seal, and with the bumps, you can't get a good seal.
Now up to this point, I've said terms like "profile" and "medically evaluated", none of these things innately remove you from service unless it's extreme (or fails to clear up over significant time). The only thing moving forward is that if it doesn't clear up they want to medically discharge you from service. Here's the rub though, you can't have soldiers that can't put on NBC masks and keep them deployable. It's a basic core task. War is war, it's nasty. The headline that gets written in the worst case scenario is "Black soldiers die in mass NBC attack because mask seals don't work" is the alternative here. This consideration HAS to be addressed when you expect war to kick up (Iran, anyone?). This is a problem... And in my time, I've seen a handful (very few) people hide behind this condition to do less work than their peers, especially to dodge deployable statuses and NBC chamber training.
Lastly, if you read the article "The recent policy update under Brig. Gen. David R. Everly reversed a 2022 rule". This "rule" is very new and was likely found to harm wartime readiness after trying it out. The people getting kicked out would be relatively new recruits in their first enlistment. I can only imagine how much worse their experience was in many training exercises because of the ill-fitting masks, and honestly, I don't really see an alternative that doesn't potentially sacrifice their lives should they deploy. These soldiers will have already served sufficiently to obtain their benefits and it would be a medical discharge, which is not a dishonorable discharge. They would keep any benefits that they had obtained through their service.
And to preempt an argument... "there's no study that says beards/razor bumps interfere with gas masks"... There are. Most of them say minimal beards/hair is fine (less than 1/16th of an inch) to get a mask seal, where 1/8 can already lead to issues. But it's understudied. The risk of getting it wrong is people's lives.
Edit: Typo
Edit2: Reported by a blahaj.zone user...
Reason: Misinformation, dog whistles, and holding water for fascists
Lmfao. Apparently pointing out that this was a thing for a long time and restating information in the article itself is misinformation...
Your comment has caused me to re-evaluate my perspective; thanks for sharing. The situation is more nuanced than I realised.
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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29283316/ from 2018 says there's problems with even really short lengths of beard...
But you're correct in that I don't have any evidence that the military found or validated the same findings internally. I think it's more likely than not though.
Edit: Actually I do have some minor proof that they know there's issues... But it's covered in the same "it's really understudied" caveat that I put in the post itself. Not worth really discussing IMO.
Edit2: I'd even disbelieve that Trump knows enough about the military to find out that they could use this to be frank...
from 2018 says there's problems with even really short lengths of beard...
You are making claims that weren't in the article. That studies conclusiion were
"Conclusion: Beard length and areal density negatively influence FF. However, tight-fitting half-face negative-pressure respirator fit tests can achieve adequate fit factor scores even with substantial facial hair in the face seal area."
Plus your original claim was that razor bumps would negatively impact the fit, not short length beards. You're moving the goalposts.
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Literally /noOSHAcompliance
Incredible.
Also thanks for your in point comments and detailed explanations, you have not been pedantic at all. Also correcting your comments? what a sight!
Don't take it personal
People inside Lemmy tend to over react with name calling and what not when their supposed knowledge about how the world works is threatened
They lash out in ignorance
Thanks for your service o7
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Eh one person being crazy isn't personal... I get there's crazies out there.
It's all good... Just wild that someone can in one breath claim there's reading comprehension issues then in the next sentence quote the regulation that proves them wrong thinking they're right...
It's scary that people like them are touching chemicals (according to them). Literally just now...
OSHA doesn’t care as long as it does not impede function of the seal.
Then quotes "respirators shall not be worn when facial hair comes between the sealing surface of the facepiece and the face" and completely misses the fact that ANY amount of hair would come between the sealing surface and the face... This is the inside of the mask, the red is the areas that touch/seal against your face... The entire chin/cheek area would be touching hair.
I'm actually just disappointed in myself that it took me so long to realize that the discussion just wasn't going to go anywhere...
It's funny because Canada ALSO looked into the same stuff... and apparently came to the same conclusion that something else has to be used to get a sufficient seal. But Noooo! I must be wrong!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=bpNKS-W0xDQ
Their answer was to just add an entire fucking hood to create a snug fit around the neck... Not sure I'm a fan of that... But even in this video some of those beards are pretty short.
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one Air Force doctor has found no direct scientific evidence to support it.
One doctor, out of all of em? Some anti-vaccine type of stupid right there
More than the amount of doctors who found direct scientific evidence ....
The guy wrote a paper about it and tried to find any evidence to support the new rules, he didn't find any.
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And to preempt an argument... "there's no study that says beards/razor bumps interfere with gas masks"... There are. Most of them say minimal beards/hair is fine (less than 1/16th of an inch) to get a mask seal, where 1/8 can already lead to issues. But it's understudied. The risk of getting it wrong is people's lives.
I was coming in here to disagree with you, because I've heard this same thing, but I won't argue a point unless I check my sources first, and sure enough, you're correct (except maybe that stubble is fine). OSHA even states that tight-fitting respirators are not to be used by those with facial hair that extends past/across the seal. So one could argue that if wearing a gas mask is a requirement, anybody who has facial hair (other than a trimmed moustache) is unable to fulfill that requirement by OSHA rules alone.
Yeah it wasn't an OSHA study that I was referencing...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29283316
With military articles like https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-beards-break-gas-mask-seal/ stating
The 2018 study showed that facial hair negatively influences the fit factor for half-face negative-pressure respirators as the hair gets longer and more dense. However, beard-wearers can still “achieve adequate fit factor scores even with substantial facial hair in the face seal area,” the study authors wrote. In fact, 98% of the study participants who had an eighth-inch of beard passed the fit test. Those results are encouraging because the respirators used in the study are pretty close to the M-50 gas masks used in the military today in terms of material and fit, Ritchie said.
So 2 out of 100 people using masks that are relatively similar to the military M50 would be at risk at 1/8th inch beard. Which is not a whole lot of hair... Like 3-4 days of growth (for me). 1/16 or less seemed to be 100% rates... But the big caveat here is that the fit-test doesn't adequately capture the rigor and activity that one might do in the military... So it seems logical that much more leakage will happen at every level.
But OSHA, ANSI, every branch of the DoD, and every study (though minimal) agrees with the fact that beard hair in of itself is a no go.
Example navy document... https://www.med.navy.mil/Portals/62/Documents/NMFA/NMCPHC/root/Industrial Hygiene/RESPIRATOR-SPECIAL-PROBLEMS.pdf?ver=Ng19UESJUtWmwvoHSABW-w%3D%3D There's a fun graph on table 2.
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from 2018 says there's problems with even really short lengths of beard...
You are making claims that weren't in the article. That studies conclusiion were
"Conclusion: Beard length and areal density negatively influence FF. However, tight-fitting half-face negative-pressure respirator fit tests can achieve adequate fit factor scores even with substantial facial hair in the face seal area."
Plus your original claim was that razor bumps would negatively impact the fit, not short length beards. You're moving the goalposts.
Plus your original claim was that razor bumps would negatively impact the fit, not short length beards. You’re moving the goalposts.
No it wasn't... but you go ahead and keep lying to yourself. You can scroll up and read it for yourself.
And to preempt an argument… “there’s no study that says beards/razor bumps interfere with gas masks”… There are. Most of them say minimal beards/hair is fine (less than 1/16th of an inch) to get a mask seal, where 1/8 can already lead to issues. But it’s understudied. The risk of getting it wrong is people’s lives.
Note that the quoted section is not "me" saying it, but a response to that general topic/discussion.
But we've already discussed this ad nauseam, so you can stop following me around now.
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You'd think we'd have masks that don't completely fail to do their job because you have .002 femtometers of hair sticking out of your face.
Fun fact, we have!
This is racist horseshit and refusal to equip soldiers properly. Or more accurately, Marines who I’d wish were a little more vocal about the blatant fascism these days
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Even if we did... getting and keeping whatever that device would be functional on a battlefield is a whole different ball-game...
War sucks...
Edit:
The easiest answer is a standard razor blade. It's easy, simple, and light (and reuseable if needed... as much as they're not really supposed to be). But that's what causes problems.The easiest answer for white guys with no razor burn.
Or we could invent SCBA and full face masks and stop pretending this was ever about NBC
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The easiest answer for white guys with no razor burn.
Or we could invent SCBA and full face masks and stop pretending this was ever about NBC
The m50 is a full face mask....
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Yeah you don't know
I guess when you fuckers start shooting, we'll see.
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Fun fact, we have!
This is racist horseshit and refusal to equip soldiers properly. Or more accurately, Marines who I’d wish were a little more vocal about the blatant fascism these days
I don't see anywhere where it says to be compatible with a beard. Also, it says it protects from sandblasting and asbestos. Tear gas and the like are a very diffefent beast and get through smaller openings.
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The m50 is a full face mask....
Clearly we need a full body mask, no need to seal against skin. Or even a full head mask that you tighten around your neck...
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You'd think we'd have masks that don't completely fail to do their job because you have .002 femtometers of hair sticking out of your face.
I'm just here trying to figure out how many hours does it take to grow your beard before you lose seal. Do you need to stop combat to shave every 12h? 6h? 1h? I need to know!
