Trump can pull the plug on the internet, and Europe can’t do anything about it
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The US officially giving tech execs military ranks is.... interesting. One of the stronger reasons to avoid companies like Huawei, was that the CCP had direct military ties / agents working within Huawei. The argument in favour of US tech companies in comparison, was that while they may have agreements with the US military, they were at arms length. Now they aren't, and the rationale seems to be attempting to shift to "just trust us", while they openly start major wars/conflicts and support genocidal actions in the middle east.
idk. If I were involved in the decision making for any critical area, I'd avoid the hell out of foreign controlled anything in my regular stacks at this point. Even if it means you have some efficiency hits until there may be an in-country provider available. It wouldn't matter who the other country is at this point, as the US going awol is something most wouldn't have 'bet' on like a decade ago, but here we are.
It's literally organized crime.
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I work for a publicly traded company.
We couldn't switch away from Microsoft if we wanted to because integrating everything with Azure and O365 is the cheapest solution in the short term, ergo has the best quarterly ROI.
I don't think the shareholders give a rat's ass about data sovereignty if it means a lower profit forecast. It'd take legislative action for us to move away from an all-Azure stack.
And yes, that sucks big time. If Microsoft stops playing nice with the EU we're going to have to pivot most of our tech stack on a moment's notice.
Yep one of the big drivers is flexibility in capex vs opex. They’ll shape the contract whichever way you want but on prem is straight to capex. I think. I’m not an accountant.
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I'm pretty sure all three of those companies host server farms in Europe. I doubt they would give them up just to fluff Trump.
MS pulled access to the azure environment of a (Russian owned) bank in NL and despite NL court orders asking for the data to be made accessible, it took diplomacy and a US court order to get access. This was not during trump admin.
We’ve been saying “this would never happen” and trump admin has slowly been shifting the Overton window.
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Hook up a couple servers to some dams.
As someone who works in IT, I love the optimism of making it sound this simple. Things that I expect to take 10 minutes can end up taking weeks, because there's always a surprising answer to "How complicated could it be?"
wrote on last edited by [email protected]True, but sometimes the only way something worthwhile ever gets done in the first place is because somebody started on it without realizing how hard it would be. Columbus only discovered the New World because he'd underestimated how far away from Asia he was. Sometimes you NEED an optimistic idiot to actually get something done. Nobody else wanted to sail west because they (correctly) assessed that the Earth was bigger than Columbus thought, and it was only blind luck that Columbus encountered an unknown continent before running out of supplies. So an idiot was necessary.
And (as a separate point) yes, when an idiot embarks on an overly-optimistic project it's a pain in the ass for everyone else who has to clean up the mess, but often the achievement lasts a lot longer and outweighs the trouble by orders of magnitude. For example the Moon landing ended up costing ten times what was originally budgeted, but I'd still say it was worth it.
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The US officially giving tech execs military ranks is.... interesting. One of the stronger reasons to avoid companies like Huawei, was that the CCP had direct military ties / agents working within Huawei. The argument in favour of US tech companies in comparison, was that while they may have agreements with the US military, they were at arms length. Now they aren't, and the rationale seems to be attempting to shift to "just trust us", while they openly start major wars/conflicts and support genocidal actions in the middle east.
idk. If I were involved in the decision making for any critical area, I'd avoid the hell out of foreign controlled anything in my regular stacks at this point. Even if it means you have some efficiency hits until there may be an in-country provider available. It wouldn't matter who the other country is at this point, as the US going awol is something most wouldn't have 'bet' on like a decade ago, but here we are.
I'm more shocked that Europeans trusted the US that much knowing how goddamned stupid people are here. We were already an oligarchy 10 years ago.
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I hope this means people finally start to see the danger of centralization.
I can't convince a single person to get off Facebook and stop using Gmail.
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Trump is back — and with him, the risk that the U.S. could unplug Europe from the digital world.
Donald Trump’s return to the White House is forcing Europe to reckon with a major digital vulnerability: The U.S. holds a kill switch over its internet.
As the U.S. administration raises the stakes in a geopolitical poker game that began when Trump started his trade war, Europeans are waking up to the fact that years of over-reliance on a handful of U.S. tech giants have given Washington a winning hand.
The fatal vulnerability is Europe’s near-total dependency on U.S. cloud providers.
Cloud computing is the lifeblood of the internet, powering everything from the emails we send and videos we stream to industrial data processing and government communications. Just three American behemoths — Amazon, Microsoft, and Google — hold more than two-thirds of the regional market, putting Europe’s online existence in the hands of firms cozying up to the U.S. president to fend off looming regulations and fines.
Cloud computing can be replaced (albeit it’s a hard process, sorta like detox). Good luck starting an independent ICANN and DNS zones.
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Cloud computing can be replaced (albeit it’s a hard process, sorta like detox). Good luck starting an independent ICANN and DNS zones.
It'd take some time to organise a replacement organisation but it's not like those systems collapse when the central service goes down. We do have our own root servers and the internet can survive a month or two of not being able to register new tlds or assign subnets.
On the flipside, I wonder how US multinationals would fare without SAP.
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True, but sometimes the only way something worthwhile ever gets done in the first place is because somebody started on it without realizing how hard it would be. Columbus only discovered the New World because he'd underestimated how far away from Asia he was. Sometimes you NEED an optimistic idiot to actually get something done. Nobody else wanted to sail west because they (correctly) assessed that the Earth was bigger than Columbus thought, and it was only blind luck that Columbus encountered an unknown continent before running out of supplies. So an idiot was necessary.
And (as a separate point) yes, when an idiot embarks on an overly-optimistic project it's a pain in the ass for everyone else who has to clean up the mess, but often the achievement lasts a lot longer and outweighs the trouble by orders of magnitude. For example the Moon landing ended up costing ten times what was originally budgeted, but I'd still say it was worth it.
sometimes the only way something worthwhile ever gets done in the first place is because somebody started on it without realizing how hard it would be.
Yes, that's a good point. We both benefit and suffer from humanity's overly optimistic moments.
often the achievement lasts a lot longer and outweighs the trouble by orders of magnitude.
True too, but Columbus might not be the clearest example of that.
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Trump is back — and with him, the risk that the U.S. could unplug Europe from the digital world.
Donald Trump’s return to the White House is forcing Europe to reckon with a major digital vulnerability: The U.S. holds a kill switch over its internet.
As the U.S. administration raises the stakes in a geopolitical poker game that began when Trump started his trade war, Europeans are waking up to the fact that years of over-reliance on a handful of U.S. tech giants have given Washington a winning hand.
The fatal vulnerability is Europe’s near-total dependency on U.S. cloud providers.
Cloud computing is the lifeblood of the internet, powering everything from the emails we send and videos we stream to industrial data processing and government communications. Just three American behemoths — Amazon, Microsoft, and Google — hold more than two-thirds of the regional market, putting Europe’s online existence in the hands of firms cozying up to the U.S. president to fend off looming regulations and fines.
Talk about clickbait ......
Article title: trump can pull the plug on the internet and europe can't do anything about it (my emphasis)
First line: the U.S. could unplug Europe from the digital world (not "pull the plug on the internet")
And then further down: "The fatal vulnerability is Europe’s near-total dependency on U.S. cloud providers."So first, it's "the internet", then it's "unplug europe from the digital world", then it's "europe's dependency on US cloud providers"
So it's NOT "the internet", and it's NOT "unplug europe", it's disconnect european customers from US cloud providers.
Methinks Monseiur Pollet doesn't understand very much about the internet.
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Talk about clickbait ......
Article title: trump can pull the plug on the internet and europe can't do anything about it (my emphasis)
First line: the U.S. could unplug Europe from the digital world (not "pull the plug on the internet")
And then further down: "The fatal vulnerability is Europe’s near-total dependency on U.S. cloud providers."So first, it's "the internet", then it's "unplug europe from the digital world", then it's "europe's dependency on US cloud providers"
So it's NOT "the internet", and it's NOT "unplug europe", it's disconnect european customers from US cloud providers.
Methinks Monseiur Pollet doesn't understand very much about the internet.
But honestly, disconnection from the US cloud providers is a lot bigger than you seem to think. A ton of governmental services are hosted on US cloud providers. Pulling that plug would mean blackout for a crapload of governmental services, which we have grown to depend on.
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It'd take some time to organise a replacement organisation but it's not like those systems collapse when the central service goes down. We do have our own root servers and the internet can survive a month or two of not being able to register new tlds or assign subnets.
On the flipside, I wonder how US multinationals would fare without SAP.
I believe many EU nations are already divesting from US companies and products, both at governmental levels and citizen boycotts. I recently read one of the countries was switching their government's computers to linux/foss
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It'd take some time to organise a replacement organisation but it's not like those systems collapse when the central service goes down. We do have our own root servers and the internet can survive a month or two of not being able to register new tlds or assign subnets.
On the flipside, I wonder how US multinationals would fare without SAP.
My partner is a primary architect of AWS to build a replacement the size and scope that could replace US cloud computing isn’t reasonable unless they already have been developing this for years behind the scenes. The people who understand these systems at scale are few and far between
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sometimes the only way something worthwhile ever gets done in the first place is because somebody started on it without realizing how hard it would be.
Yes, that's a good point. We both benefit and suffer from humanity's overly optimistic moments.
often the achievement lasts a lot longer and outweighs the trouble by orders of magnitude.
True too, but Columbus might not be the clearest example of that.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Ah yes, I hadn't intended that part to be considered a continuation of the Columbus point. "Sometimes idiots like Columbus get things done that nobody else was gonna do because everybody else understands just how monumental the task actually is and are deterred from doing it" is a separate point from "often even when a project was more trouble, time and effort than bargained for, it's still worth it". My apologies for the confusion. I've edited my other comment to make it clearer on that score.
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Companies also probably have servers in other places, meaning perhaps they’d connect through elsewhere
Depends on company, but that worst case scenario is that all US companies would shut down all their services in Europe overnight. Every big player has datacenters around the world and if it's just the traffic between continents which is shut down then the effect is way less radical, absolute majority of Europe already connects to datacenters near them even if they use Microsoft/Google/Amazon/etc services.
For example with my employer dropping every US based company would be a hell of a work, specially if it's needed in a hurry. We, as well as a ton of others, rely on Microsoft services for all kinds of communication and should that go away we'd need to make quite a few phone calls around couple of continents just to set up a common ground on where and how to start building new infrastructure and how to keep communication lines open.
Though if it were for a few hours, maybe let people see the consequences of their dependence, and what life would be like without these services
Few hours is a short time. There's some problems around the globe all the time which affect various services on various levels for few hours all the time. Few days of complete blackout and C-suits start to really sweat (plus it costs significant amounts of money via lost productivity).
if anyone knows how to block connections based on location, feel free to enlighten me
You'll need a firewall/router which can do geoblocking. Based on quick search at least pfsense seems to have some options available. If I were to try that I'd set up a pfsense on a virtual machine, set up geoblock on that and use that as a gateway for my testing devices while leaving the rest of the network as it is so that I could limit/choose what devices may behave strangely and still have normal functionality for the rest.
I assume there's a ton of other options too besides pfsense, but the key words are 'geoblock', 'firewall' and 'router' or something around that. Also I assume that most of the stuff you find explains how to block incoming traffic based on geoIP, but it should be relatively simple to adapt those for outgoing traffic as well.
I was mainly mentioning servers outside US in the context of me blocking access to/from US personally. If US blocked it all everywhere, that woudn't be possible. You'd at best have the data up to that point in time, until the block, but no further, unless the companies update their servers physically, with, like, USBs, CDs, Floppy Disks.
As for already connecting to data centers nearby, some of my top US connections, according to NextDNS, are, ironically, from Spotify, which, afaik, is European.
Few hours is a short time
Yeah, but remember this also affects everyday people. I was mainly thinking of them, I guess. Akin to a nation-wide power outage. You see just how much you depend on it, and what it'd be like without it. It may already be so ingrained in one's everyday life. To realise to what extent, can be eye-opening. Most people probably wouldn't expect, and could be surprised, by stuff mentioned, such as GPS and payments, not working. Or just something that, in the background, relies on a big US company, like Amazon servers or somethingpfsense
Will look into that. And also look for the keywords, see what else I can find. Let's see if I go through with such experiment -
But honestly, disconnection from the US cloud providers is a lot bigger than you seem to think. A ton of governmental services are hosted on US cloud providers. Pulling that plug would mean blackout for a crapload of governmental services, which we have grown to depend on.
It would also mean a huge hit on their own tech sector, if not near wipeout.
It’s one of those situations that, sure, they could, just like a monkey could purposely snap the branch where he and his friend are sitting on and both fall.
As for Europe, yes, it would be a painful transition, but eventually it could build its own infrastructure anyway
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My partner is a primary architect of AWS to build a replacement the size and scope that could replace US cloud computing isn’t reasonable unless they already have been developing this for years behind the scenes. The people who understand these systems at scale are few and far between
There's no "behind the scenes" there are plenty of EU-based cloud providers. Including SAP though that's not why I mentioned them.
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MS pulled access to the azure environment of a (Russian owned) bank in NL and despite NL court orders asking for the data to be made accessible, it took diplomacy and a US court order to get access. This was not during trump admin.
We’ve been saying “this would never happen” and trump admin has slowly been shifting the Overton window.
In that case they didn't want to risk liability. They're not going to do something guaranteed to lose them lots of money just to make daddy Trump happy.
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It would also mean a huge hit on their own tech sector, if not near wipeout.
It’s one of those situations that, sure, they could, just like a monkey could purposely snap the branch where he and his friend are sitting on and both fall.
As for Europe, yes, it would be a painful transition, but eventually it could build its own infrastructure anyway
eh, in the Netherlands we would just cut off all their datacenters, maybe even the internet hub we have to the US.
so go ahead -
Honestly, as an American living in Silicon Valley, I would be overjoyed if Europe became the primary kickstarter for open source alternatives to the existing US corporate infrastructure, that bends to the knees of the Federal government. Even here at home, myself and some of my co-workers aren't too keen on the existing status quo tools because there are too many caveats - from rent seeking subscriptions to the inability to verify if something is tampered with.
In the same way Valve saw how having all their eggs in the Windows basket led them to dive head first into linux development, I hope the EU's realization of the risks in the US tech sector lead it to developing unified, well funded OSS alternatives. I would certainly install them.
as a European formerly living in silicon valley.. we are working on it. and thanks to the orange turd in charge it's been fast-tracked.
and when all hell breaks loose, we'll just stop sending ASML machines your way. best of luck idiots (not all of you)
