Do you believe that the people should be able to have guns to protect themselves, or should the police have the sole authority to own and posess guns to protect the people?
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American, white, liberal, redneck gun nut here. If you're talking about "defund the police", that's yet another idiot liberal slogan that misses the mark. The idea is to take police funds and pay for workers who can handle situations police should never have been sent to. Want to kill yourself? Call the cops!
The far right loves cops because cops are on their side, or are perceived to be. To put it bluntly, guns are for shooting marauding black people, not white people. See all the stories about white people being shocked when law enforcement doesn't go their way? Yeah.
Also, I suspect people who are anti-gun have never had violence inflicted upon them, or cops who are far away, or haven't had a bear wander in the dog door, or haven't had an enraged redneck struggling to be polite because they're visibly armed. In related news, my MAGA neighbor came stomping down here to kick my ass, turned right the fuck around when I went inside for my .45.
I could write all night on the subject, but let me leave it at this: Now is not the fucking time for Americans to disarm themselves. The only reason fascists haven't run us completely over is that they know there will be a real chance we'll fucking kill them. Look where the ICE raids are happening, in the places where guns are the most suppressed.
Yes, this all sucks, but it's where we're at in America.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Also, I suspect people who are anti-gun have never had violence inflicted upon them
Have you considered that some have just had violence inflicted upon them by people with guns?
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No, we're not. There is literally nothing in Europe that happens in a year that compares with the gun violence and homicide rate happens in America in a weekend.
Which is why I said "to a much lesser extent." Mass shootings are on the rise in multiple European countries, as are homicides and hate crimes. I mean hell, France is looking to restrict knives over this stuff. Having a non-broken society contributes a lot more than what murder weapons are available, and now that European societies are generally fraying at the seams murder rates are unsurprisingly rising.
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A gun can be used in defense. I don't understand the want to remove the one thing that gives you a chance at survival, while a literal fascist is in power right now....one that just built a concentration camp and sells merchandise to it like it's funny...guns are dangerous, but they're the only thing that equalizes everyone when force comes into play.
but they're the only thing that equalizes everyone when force comes into play.
This is fucking idiotic.
Are you not aware that the government has bigger, better, and more autonomous guns than you do?
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Which is why I said "to a much lesser extent." Mass shootings are on the rise in multiple European countries, as are homicides and hate crimes. I mean hell, France is looking to restrict knives over this stuff. Having a non-broken society contributes a lot more than what murder weapons are available, and now that European societies are generally fraying at the seams murder rates are unsurprisingly rising.
Yeah, and you keep phrasing that like it's comparable, it's not.
Put statistics behind your words if you think they're rising to a place of being comparable with the US.
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Yeah, and you keep phrasing that like it's comparable, it's not.
Put statistics behind your words if you think they're rising to a place of being comparable with the US.
Okay I don't like talking like this, but what part of "to a much lesser extent" do you not understand?
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Okay I don't like talking like this, but what part of "to a much lesser extent" do you not understand?
wrote last edited by [email protected]I get it, it just makes it sound like widespread ownership of guns aren't directly contributing to the problem in a major way.
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Japan says otherwise. Gun crime is practically non-existent, despite a population of over a hundred million people.
It's unrealistic to apply this to the US given how many guns already exist, but it's not actually impossible.
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(As a general concept of how a society should run, not intended as a US-specific question.)
I sometimes see people on the internet saying that giving people easy access to guns is too risky and there should be stricter gun control, while simultaneously wanting to abolish the police? I'm just confused on what people really want?
You cant both abolish the police and then also disarm the citizens, gotta pick one. So which is it, internet? Self-policing with guns? Or reform the police?
[Please state what country you're in]
::: spoiler ---
(Also its funny how the far-right of the US is both pro-gun and pro-police, I'm confused by that as well)
:::US
Our gun laws are a patchwork of really dumb state and federal laws and regulations that often don't make much sense and there is little consistency. I think we pretty much need to go back to square one with basic shit like defining what constitutes a "firearm" and go from there.
I have a lot of thoughts on this and I'm not going to write them all out here right now, because it would get really lengthy and I just don't feel like it right now (if there's interest in hearing what this random internet stranger has to say I may write it up later)
But in general I think that people should be able to own guns, but I also think that there should be a lot of hoops to jump through to get them, background checks, proficiency tests, education , training, insurance, psychological evaluations, storage requirements, etc.
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(As a general concept of how a society should run, not intended as a US-specific question.)
I sometimes see people on the internet saying that giving people easy access to guns is too risky and there should be stricter gun control, while simultaneously wanting to abolish the police? I'm just confused on what people really want?
You cant both abolish the police and then also disarm the citizens, gotta pick one. So which is it, internet? Self-policing with guns? Or reform the police?
[Please state what country you're in]
::: spoiler ---
(Also its funny how the far-right of the US is both pro-gun and pro-police, I'm confused by that as well)
:::i can't just trust people holding guns. but yeah, i don't trust cops either. (i'm not american)
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(As a general concept of how a society should run, not intended as a US-specific question.)
I sometimes see people on the internet saying that giving people easy access to guns is too risky and there should be stricter gun control, while simultaneously wanting to abolish the police? I'm just confused on what people really want?
You cant both abolish the police and then also disarm the citizens, gotta pick one. So which is it, internet? Self-policing with guns? Or reform the police?
[Please state what country you're in]
::: spoiler ---
(Also its funny how the far-right of the US is both pro-gun and pro-police, I'm confused by that as well)
:::wrote last edited by [email protected]People shouldn't have guns. Why would you need a gun? To protect yourself? Well, if you have a gun, the one you are protecting yourself from has a gun too. See, not really protection at all, it just enables you both to hurt each other much more seriously.
Just look at all the school shootings - most of those would never had happened had guns been harder to get.
Edit: Look at murder/kill statistics for countries that allow its citizens to have guns. I don't think guns = safety, but rather guns = more deaths and leas safety.
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People shouldn't have guns. Why would you need a gun? To protect yourself? Well, if you have a gun, the one you are protecting yourself from has a gun too. See, not really protection at all, it just enables you both to hurt each other much more seriously.
Just look at all the school shootings - most of those would never had happened had guns been harder to get.
Edit: Look at murder/kill statistics for countries that allow its citizens to have guns. I don't think guns = safety, but rather guns = more deaths and leas safety.
Would you extend that to knives as well? The logic still applies, and there's a serious movement to limit knife access in the UK.
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Also, you can't hand-to-hand a bear.
Polearms > Bear arms
wrote last edited by [email protected]Bring back the phalanx.
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US
People in cities should not use guns for self protection, but should also not rely on the police. Instead, less lethal options should be used for self defense like pepper spray, lasers, or maybe rubber bullets. In the vast majority of cases, densely populated areas will have other people close enough that resisting will discourage continued violence if a commotion is started, just because of possible witnesses.
In rural areas people choosing to use guns they have for hunting for the occasional threat is fine because distances are much further and there is nobody nearby to come and scare off someone by being a witness.
The settings are different and have different needs.
As far abolishing the police, the idea is that the current antagonistic police forces are so broken and do so many things that they need to be replaced with something else. Traffic enforcement shouldn't be the same force that deescalates violent situations which shouldn't be the same force that responds to people in distress. Having the same people respond to all situations where there is a tiny possibility of violence after being taught to treat everyone as a threat is why we get police rolling up and shooting people in mental crisis, breaking into people's homes and shooting dogs over some weed, and shooting drivers who are trying to comply with their confusingly shouted 'instructions'.
In some European countries, most police are unarmed. It seems to work okay. Here in Canada, they all carry guns, but it's serious paperwork if they ever have to unholster it.
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Would you extend that to knives as well? The logic still applies, and there's a serious movement to limit knife access in the UK.
wrote last edited by [email protected]No reason to carry knives in public, but knives shouldn't be banned. Knives have many useful applications in daily life.
Compared to guns, it takes rather a long time to kill several persons with a knife compared to a gun - guns are by magnitudes more dangerous and lethal.Bow and arrow, baseball bat etc. etc. all could be weapons, but the problem with guns is the speed it can kill multiple persons.
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No reason to carry knives in public, but knives shouldn't be banned. Knives have many useful applications in daily life.
Compared to guns, it takes rather a long time to kill several persons with a knife compared to a gun - guns are by magnitudes more dangerous and lethal.Bow and arrow, baseball bat etc. etc. all could be weapons, but the problem with guns is the speed it can kill multiple persons.
No reason to carry knives in public
Knives are so useful, I think carrying a multitool with multiple decently sized blades is very reasonable.
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Would you extend that to knives as well? The logic still applies, and there's a serious movement to limit knife access in the UK.
Knives and guns aren't at all comparable weapons. One allows the user to quickly kill multiple people at ranges up to several hundred meters, the other gives the user a significant advantage (edge) in melee combat against an unarmed/unarmoured opponent.
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People shouldn't have guns. Why would you need a gun? To protect yourself? Well, if you have a gun, the one you are protecting yourself from has a gun too. See, not really protection at all, it just enables you both to hurt each other much more seriously.
Just look at all the school shootings - most of those would never had happened had guns been harder to get.
Edit: Look at murder/kill statistics for countries that allow its citizens to have guns. I don't think guns = safety, but rather guns = more deaths and leas safety.
So banned people who are above average in size and strength because they could hurt you much more seriously?
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Also, I suspect people who are anti-gun have never had violence inflicted upon them
Have you considered that some have just had violence inflicted upon them by people with guns?
I understand your point but guns are a great equalizer for anyone who isn't a young, strong male. Gun vs gun is more equal than fist vs fist or whatever else would be happening instead.
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US / PNW
People who have not committed violent crimes should have the right to own and purchase any firearm.
From my point of view, the NFA is a violation of individualsā rights and should be abolished. The concept of a concealed carry permit, permit to purchase, āgun free zoneā, or firearm licensing / registration are a violation of peoplesā rights.
Firearm function and safety should be taught in schools again, including safe storage.
Failure to follow firearm safety or safe storage resulting in bodily harm ought to be a criminal offense with heavy consequences, especially in cases that result in death.Policing in the US is in dire need of reform.
āQualified Immunityā needs to end. Officers ought to be held to higher standards than the rest of the population, which includes using their judgment for appropriate levels of force and facing consequences for excessive force.
Murderers do not get paid administrative leave or a new job in the next state, they get a trial by jury.
Use of deadly force in self defense against an officer of the law ought to be justifiable after being tried in court.
Traffic enforcement, response to mental health crises, response to domestic disputes, and response to reports of threats/violence require separate skillsets and should be handled by separate teams with their own training and qualifications.wrote last edited by [email protected]The issue I see with the logic that "Everyone should have the right to carry a gun everywhere, until their negligence causes harm" is the massive consequence of someone messing up with a gun.
Guns are so extremely lethal that when accidents happen (they will eventually happen), it is likely to result in death or disability. It seems pretty clear to me that society overall is safer for everyone the fewer guns there are around. It doesn't really matter if the person that shot me due to negligence loses their license, I've already been shot, and they shouldn't have had a gun in the first place.
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(As a general concept of how a society should run, not intended as a US-specific question.)
I sometimes see people on the internet saying that giving people easy access to guns is too risky and there should be stricter gun control, while simultaneously wanting to abolish the police? I'm just confused on what people really want?
You cant both abolish the police and then also disarm the citizens, gotta pick one. So which is it, internet? Self-policing with guns? Or reform the police?
[Please state what country you're in]
::: spoiler ---
(Also its funny how the far-right of the US is both pro-gun and pro-police, I'm confused by that as well)
:::Neither this nor that. Your options are too simplistic.
Of course, police needs guns.
Some civilians need guns, too. But not many. They should be able to get them, but they have to prove their need. It needs rules set up in advance to define what kind of needs qualify for getting guns. And then it needs laws against gun abuse.
In addition, soldiers need guns. They even need weapons that are much stronger. So there must be boundaries between several kinds of weapons, and normal people cannot get all kinds. And there must be boundaries between what police can do and what soldiers can do. For example, soldiers must never go against civilians, and nobody has the right to order them so, and they can never get punished for denying such an order.
