[No PHPun Intended] A Brief History of Web Development
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I am an advocate for LKPPR (Linux, Kubernetes, Postgres, Python, React). Doesn't roll off the tongue that well.
Get that fucking JavaScript out of here
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It's true that the fuckers that stayed in PHP now are getting paid insane amounts of money to maintain systems? I've heard they are the new cobol people.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]I doubt that the pay is insane yet. There are a lot more PHP devs than COBOL devs. About half of the web still runs on PHP. It's true that COBOL runs about half of the financial world, but PHP is less than 30 years old whereas COBOL programs are relics from decades earlier, and generally only get updated minimally if the systems around them change.
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Now it was a great while ago I wrote anything in PHP. What icks me is the separation of concern. It has a tendency to cause code that’s concerned with logic and rendering at the same time. The act of moving a button can interfere with the logic, and it obfuscates how the entire website looks like.
Maybe there’s better coding practices to ensure better separation of concern in PHP.
that just sounds like what i hear from react devs.
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Oh sorry, that P actually stands for “PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor”.
"Recursive Backronym"
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So PHP may be trash, but don't treat the people using it like trash? Makes sense to me.
lift people up instead of pushing them down. we don't make fun of the language someone is using, we help them get better.
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Python is a natural evolution for web development, especially once you're past the fundamentals. For someone with no scripting background, PHP is easier to approach. The syntax is more direct, and basic debugging doesn't require any setup. An error happened on x line is the default behavior.
Python's logging system can be tricky to configure properly if you're unfamiliar with the factory and error level handling. Those green people don't have any idea where to put the log or how to let the web server talk to it safely.
It's the little bs like refusing for years to include switch, then when they finally give, they just refuse to allow fallthrough. It's like they said, fine, but it's got to work slightly differently and we don't like the name... it feels childish.
All things considered, Python has a richer ecosystem and deeper long-term potential. But there's something to be said for how quickly a basic PHP site can be spun up and debugged with minimal knowledge with minimal friction. And that's why it's still around so much today.
I agree that PHP was easy to pick up, but I already knew several programming languages and was quickly shooting myself in the foot with the extremely overbuilt, redundant, and buggy builtin functions. At the time, though, it was either that or ASP, so I chose the lesser of two evils.
To segue, switch statements aren't inherently necessary for a mature programming language; I think that addition was partially to mollify the growing userbase (not a good reason), but on the other hand it's really just structured pattern matching wearing a hat that says "switch" on it ... though again, that's something which could fairly trivially be achieved with a list comprehension. It's not like you're getting the machine-code-level optimizations that a C compiler could churn out for a proper switch statement.
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Laravel brought life back to PHP for me. It's elegant. I feels like speaking.
And PHP 8 is light-years away from the garbage I grew up on.
I took a look and threw up in my mouth a little. That's not how backslashes should be used.
Instead of writing their frontend templates in PHP via Blade, many developers have begun to prefer to write their templates using React or Vue.
So... the only thing that PHP is really good for should be replaced by React or Vue Javascript / Typescript?
To each their own, but for me that's a no.
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I agree that PHP was easy to pick up, but I already knew several programming languages and was quickly shooting myself in the foot with the extremely overbuilt, redundant, and buggy builtin functions. At the time, though, it was either that or ASP, so I chose the lesser of two evils.
To segue, switch statements aren't inherently necessary for a mature programming language; I think that addition was partially to mollify the growing userbase (not a good reason), but on the other hand it's really just structured pattern matching wearing a hat that says "switch" on it ... though again, that's something which could fairly trivially be achieved with a list comprehension. It's not like you're getting the machine-code-level optimizations that a C compiler could churn out for a proper switch statement.
I personally feel that giving the growing user base things they want is probably the most prudent reason. Constantly refusing to provide simple constructs that are available everywhere else It's not a good look. In the open source world if you do that shit enough you end up getting forked.
The context and ease of switch in a functional programming layout is a rather clean implementation.
Otherwise you end up with the crap like they're pulling with flask were you just make an unnamed, unindexed number of functions. Can you sort and organize your functions and make everything clean? Sure you can. Does it happen by default? Almost never.
You can walk up to someone else's switch and see what the options are. The code flows through that simple construct and it's very easy to understand someone else's work.
I load up someone else's flask endpoint, It's just this multi-page stream of consciousness.
You don't need switch, But there's a reason why so damn many people ask for it. Before they agreed to include "match", They said just to use getattr and write your own switch.
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Get that fucking JavaScript out of here
What's your alternative for web development?
Server side rendered content can only get you so far.
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yeah rails is literally the only thing giving ruby a bad name, it's terrible. Ruby is a beautiful, amazing language, and then people shit all over it because of Rails. I literally had someone complain that ruby is a horrible language, I asked them what they meant, they listed off all rails things, then I showed them the language and they were like "this isn't what I was using...".
in any case I think you really should only use ruby for very small scripts or programs. Nothing enterprisey at all.
I'm complete opposite. I feel ruby is a far more mature solution compared to what enterprises are using; node, python, (new hot language here).
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What's your alternative for web development?
Server side rendered content can only get you so far.
Right? That's the mindset that brought us asp, jsp, and php. JS might be obnoxious, but it's the only viable client-side right now.
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Where I live, I still see people in a horse-drawn wagon. So, I guess horse-drawn wagons never died? It's only used for tourists and weddings, but that counts, right?
According to Tiobe, PHP was the programming language of the year in 2004. In 2010 it was number 3 in the top 10 programming languages. It's now out of the top 10 entirely. There really isn't a language that has completely disappeared. Mainframes are still programmed using COBOL, Scientists are still using FORTRAN, even Lisp, which has been around since the 1950s, is still going strong.
Maybe Actionscript counts as truly dead, since it was tied to Adobe Flash, and Flash is truly dead?
I have a lot of bad memories of PHP. It was, for a brief time, the main language I used, but it was so ugly and inconsistent. The only thing I loved about it, at the time, was that it wasn't Visual Basic. As bad as PHP was, at least I wasn't making web pages in that pile of hot garbage. But, I never felt joy writing something in PHP. At best it was a slog. At worst it was like pulling teeth.
Just about every other language has given me moments of fun. Original Javascript was a mess, but it already contained scheme-like features. It was sold as being an interpreted version of Java, but it had features that Java wouldn't have for at least a decade. C is a brutal and unforgiving language, but as long as you're not working with strings, it's great to have such low-level control over everything.
Maybe PHP has evolved like other languages, but I still am not interested in trying it out. Everything it was good at can be done better by other languages, and those are languages that give me joy, not pain. I hope it keeps dropping in the rankings so that people aren't exposed to it as one of their first languages.
I wouldn’t even say that Flash is truly dead, thanks to emulators like Ruffle. You can still make a movie or game in Flash MX 2004, which is freely available now, and have it run in the browser. That said, last I looked (years ago) only AS2 was supported, so AS3 might be well and truly dead (rip my first language).
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Or TSP (trisodium phosphate) - which you can't even make websites with, but it's great for cleaning oil spots off the driveway.
I laughed pretty hard at this while also unexpectedly learning how to clean up a mess I made changing the oil in my car on a particularly windy day recently!
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I personally feel that giving the growing user base things they want is probably the most prudent reason. Constantly refusing to provide simple constructs that are available everywhere else It's not a good look. In the open source world if you do that shit enough you end up getting forked.
The context and ease of switch in a functional programming layout is a rather clean implementation.
Otherwise you end up with the crap like they're pulling with flask were you just make an unnamed, unindexed number of functions. Can you sort and organize your functions and make everything clean? Sure you can. Does it happen by default? Almost never.
You can walk up to someone else's switch and see what the options are. The code flows through that simple construct and it's very easy to understand someone else's work.
I load up someone else's flask endpoint, It's just this multi-page stream of consciousness.
You don't need switch, But there's a reason why so damn many people ask for it. Before they agreed to include "match", They said just to use getattr and write your own switch.
I guess I should be thankful that they were no longer demanding GOTOs.
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Where I live, I still see people in a horse-drawn wagon. So, I guess horse-drawn wagons never died? It's only used for tourists and weddings, but that counts, right?
According to Tiobe, PHP was the programming language of the year in 2004. In 2010 it was number 3 in the top 10 programming languages. It's now out of the top 10 entirely. There really isn't a language that has completely disappeared. Mainframes are still programmed using COBOL, Scientists are still using FORTRAN, even Lisp, which has been around since the 1950s, is still going strong.
Maybe Actionscript counts as truly dead, since it was tied to Adobe Flash, and Flash is truly dead?
I have a lot of bad memories of PHP. It was, for a brief time, the main language I used, but it was so ugly and inconsistent. The only thing I loved about it, at the time, was that it wasn't Visual Basic. As bad as PHP was, at least I wasn't making web pages in that pile of hot garbage. But, I never felt joy writing something in PHP. At best it was a slog. At worst it was like pulling teeth.
Just about every other language has given me moments of fun. Original Javascript was a mess, but it already contained scheme-like features. It was sold as being an interpreted version of Java, but it had features that Java wouldn't have for at least a decade. C is a brutal and unforgiving language, but as long as you're not working with strings, it's great to have such low-level control over everything.
Maybe PHP has evolved like other languages, but I still am not interested in trying it out. Everything it was good at can be done better by other languages, and those are languages that give me joy, not pain. I hope it keeps dropping in the rankings so that people aren't exposed to it as one of their first languages.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Yeah, I think this is a more fitting meme to be about Java, because despite all the java is dead articles it's still like one of the top most used language, if anything is a serious backend service it likely runs on Java.
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Yeah, I think this is a more fitting meme to be about Java, because despite all the java is dead articles it's still like one of the top most used language, if anything is a serious backend service it likely runs on Java.
Java is a better fit. It hasn't fallen in popularity the way PHP has. But, I'm not convinced that serious backend services mostly use Java. It's one of the languages used, sure. But, I don't know if it beats C/C++ or Go. Apache's C. Nginx is C. Kubernetes is Go. Docker is Go.
I think Java has a niche with certain kinds of business logic applications, and those are pretty common. I would guess that in a typical set of interactions with a Google product, or a Meta product, or an AWS product, some parts of the traffic will be handled by services written in Java. But, others will be C/C++ or Go. There will probably also be some parts of the process that are PHP or Ruby or Python, and a lot of Javascript.
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Most memes or jokes referencing a direct problem in PHP, are old or made by people who haven't touched the language in a decade(version 7 was in 2015, and it removed/fixed a lot of issues and added needed features).
There's also the huge looming thing that a lot of programmers forget: Websites like Wikipedia run on PHP, not to mention the amount of WordPress and similar websites are out there. Which means it will keep going strong. And for a while Facebook also used quite a lot of it, to the point where they made a rudimentary compiler instead of rewriting parts in more efficient languanges.
Also, most of the websites are made with WordPress, which... take a guess, yes, it runs on PHP!
(even though WordPress is a bad example because it's written in a horrible and ancient way)
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PHP will remain alive as long Wordpress is still being used.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]But let's not forget that the WordPress codebase is absolute dogshit.
And not an example of how to write proper modern PHP.
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What's your alternative for web development?
Server side rendered content can only get you so far.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Webassembly frameworks.
Blazor! But only because I'm a dotnet guy professionally.
Yew? I'm not good enough with Rust to have tried it.
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No JavaScript, just HTML and CSS. Basically no images. The heaviest page dumps 50 rows of logs in a table.
It's admittedly a fundamentally simple frontend, but we all know of frontends with a simple job and a not so simple frontend.
Ah, so it sounds like it was more about dieting than exercising.
