No fighting back said the teacher
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So if Trump was causing conflicts that put all people in the US at risk, the innocent people who stand against the atrocities should die because we all live under a corrupt leader?
Yeah pretty much. It's a democracy. You're responsible for your leaders. Do people not understand that? What you think you have no responsibility after you cast your ballot?
Now do note that wasn't even the scenario we were talking about, you just pulled this out of your ass. The question was should someone from an entirely different Nation give the genocidal Nation money to defend themselves against the victims of their genocidal attacks. Which is a weird thing to defend I think. This is a nation that literally murders babies for fun and entertainment and you're giving them a free suit of armor as if that doesn't make you culpable I don't understand it. How can someone abrogate that much responsibility? It's just disgusting.
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Yeah pretty much. It's a democracy. You're responsible for your leaders. Do people not understand that? What you think you have no responsibility after you cast your ballot?
Now do note that wasn't even the scenario we were talking about, you just pulled this out of your ass. The question was should someone from an entirely different Nation give the genocidal Nation money to defend themselves against the victims of their genocidal attacks. Which is a weird thing to defend I think. This is a nation that literally murders babies for fun and entertainment and you're giving them a free suit of armor as if that doesn't make you culpable I don't understand it. How can someone abrogate that much responsibility? It's just disgusting.
How is it different? There are plenty of Israelis who condemn Netanyahu and his atrocities. They should be killed because they were born in the wrong nation and more of their neighbors supported this leader?
Netanyahu’s favorably rating is below Trump’s. It’s a fair equivalence.
Condemning all Israelis for the actions of Netanyahu is no different than condemning all Palestinians for the actions of Hamas.
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How is it different? There are plenty of Israelis who condemn Netanyahu and his atrocities. They should be killed because they were born in the wrong nation and more of their neighbors supported this leader?
Netanyahu’s favorably rating is below Trump’s. It’s a fair equivalence.
Condemning all Israelis for the actions of Netanyahu is no different than condemning all Palestinians for the actions of Hamas.
What do you mean how's it different? You've changed the entire question. I say again this is someone from a separate country sending money to the genocidal country. It's not the same at all. Arguably it's even worse.
Again though yes. How are you not getting that? It's your government. You're responsible for what your government does. It's not a feudal Lord. You voted for this. That's what democracy means. Rule of the people. The people are responsible. If you're genocidal government is committing genocide then you need to stop them. That's your job. The arrogance of thinking you should be immune to the horrible actions of your nation is amazing to me.
Also I don't know where all this imaginary pacifist Israelis opposition is coming from. Polls Have consistently shown massive support for genocidal actions. Just a little over a month ago there was a poll released that said 82% of Israelis supported the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza. Sidebar that's called genocide. They're not victims.
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What do you mean how's it different? You've changed the entire question. I say again this is someone from a separate country sending money to the genocidal country. It's not the same at all. Arguably it's even worse.
Again though yes. How are you not getting that? It's your government. You're responsible for what your government does. It's not a feudal Lord. You voted for this. That's what democracy means. Rule of the people. The people are responsible. If you're genocidal government is committing genocide then you need to stop them. That's your job. The arrogance of thinking you should be immune to the horrible actions of your nation is amazing to me.
Also I don't know where all this imaginary pacifist Israelis opposition is coming from. Polls Have consistently shown massive support for genocidal actions. Just a little over a month ago there was a poll released that said 82% of Israelis supported the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza. Sidebar that's called genocide. They're not victims.
wrote last edited by [email protected]So according to your transitive logic, Palestinians are all responsible for the kidnappings and murders by Hamas? All Russians are responsible for Putin’s actions? All Salvadorans for Bukele?
It’s that kind of black and white justification that will perpetuate the slaughter of innocent people. You should really consider that the Geneva Convention and The Rome Statute identify civilians as a protected group for a reason.
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So if Trump was causing conflicts that put all people in the US at risk, the innocent people who stand against the atrocities should die because we all live under a corrupt leader?
It's not really the same I'd say. If you live in Israel, I feel like you can easily move elsewhere. Not sure, just me spitballing that many countries would be ok with them being granted asylum.
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Also the analogy doesn't make sense. AOC is not saying "hey mass shooter have a bulletproof vest." she's saying "hey officer, why don't you take away that mass shooter's gun instead of their bulletproof vest?"
You're right, but I believe what the commenter meant was "Perfect is the enemy of Good".
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She literally just said we should take away their offensive weapons. How on earth does that equal “being bought” by Israel?
wrote last edited by [email protected]People just can't handle the fact that sometimes people who are generally good can be really really wrong and need to come to with dumbass conspiracies to explain it.
It's actually identical to why there's so many stupid conspiracy theories about everything. People can't handle the idea that the world is chaos
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So according to your transitive logic, Palestinians are all responsible for the kidnappings and murders by Hamas? All Russians are responsible for Putin’s actions? All Salvadorans for Bukele?
It’s that kind of black and white justification that will perpetuate the slaughter of innocent people. You should really consider that the Geneva Convention and The Rome Statute identify civilians as a protected group for a reason.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Are you saying Hamas ran a democratic state? I'd love to hear you make that argument. How long has it been since they allowed elections again?
But since you're making absurd leaps let me make one more. During World War II we bombed Germany's industrial sector. We did it to kill their ability to make tanks and missiles and airplanes. If we hadn't done that the Nazis would have kept going. Maybe even won the war who knows. The point is it was critical mission to destroy their ability to make war. You don't think any civilians got harmed in that? So you saying that no matter what crimes no matter what Horrors a nation perpetrates you can never attack that nation in defense because someone in that Nation might get hurt? Do you understand how absurd that sounds? The whole world has to sit down and let genocidal maniacs exterminate entire peoples. Slaughter children by the truckload. Let snipers play target practice on starving civilians. They can do that with impunity because if one person who doesn't agree with that Nation might get heard in the process then you can't retaliate. That's literally the argument you're making here. Gee I'm sure Netanyahu is a big fan of your argument here.
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Are you saying Hamas ran a democratic state? I'd love to hear you make that argument. How long has it been since they allowed elections again?
But since you're making absurd leaps let me make one more. During World War II we bombed Germany's industrial sector. We did it to kill their ability to make tanks and missiles and airplanes. If we hadn't done that the Nazis would have kept going. Maybe even won the war who knows. The point is it was critical mission to destroy their ability to make war. You don't think any civilians got harmed in that? So you saying that no matter what crimes no matter what Horrors a nation perpetrates you can never attack that nation in defense because someone in that Nation might get hurt? Do you understand how absurd that sounds? The whole world has to sit down and let genocidal maniacs exterminate entire peoples. Slaughter children by the truckload. Let snipers play target practice on starving civilians. They can do that with impunity because if one person who doesn't agree with that Nation might get heard in the process then you can't retaliate. That's literally the argument you're making here. Gee I'm sure Netanyahu is a big fan of your argument here.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I’m saying they were elected into power, just the same as Trump and Netanyahu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
No, I don’t agree with bombing civilians, regardless of the justification. No, I will not defend the atrocities of the US government simply because I’m a citizen. Governments and military are to blame for killing innocent people, not entire nations.
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It's not really the same I'd say. If you live in Israel, I feel like you can easily move elsewhere. Not sure, just me spitballing that many countries would be ok with them being granted asylum.
wrote last edited by [email protected]You say that like it’s as simple as a choice. I’m in the US. I do not want to live in the US. I do not have the means to move out of the US. To be eligible for asylum, you need to prove that your life is threatened by staying in your resident nation.
I voted against Trump three times, lobby my congresspeople, and am an activist against the atrocities of this administration. Does that make me complicit in Trump’s actions? If so, how do you justify that?
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besides that.
If we don't help them finances the iron dome, they'll have to pay for it themselves, taking away of their genocidal project. although they will probably cut other services like free education or free healthcare. genociders dont deserve nice things.
Yup, they'll screw their population out of services before they give up their colonial conquests.
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I get your point, but my point was about Israel's privilege to act without consequences. If their children were put at risk by their genocidal actions, they might be incentivized to, I dunno, not be genocidal psychopaths.
Imagine its the USA commiting genocide and bombing Mexico or something, and you do not support the actions of your country but your family is only alive because of the iron dome protecting you from the bombs that are just flying over your heads between these two countries.
Your family, which neither country cares about, is who AOC and other people like us are thinking of.
We are not in favor of either country-- we are on the side of humanity.
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I’m saying they were elected into power, just the same as Trump and Netanyahu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
No, I don’t agree with bombing civilians, regardless of the justification. No, I will not defend the atrocities of the US government simply because I’m a citizen. Governments and military are to blame for killing innocent people, not entire nations.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Wow you are making an argument that Hamas runs a democratic state. Yikes. Wish you would have led with that it would have saved us all a lot of time.
By the way who said anything about defend? I know you've moved the goal post a hell of a lot during our conversation but that one's so far I left field I don't think it's in the galaxy.
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I'm about to be shit on as a Zionist for defending the death of innocent children, but here goes:
Isreal is just as full of innocent children. They don't deserve to die for the genocide their parents are being tricked into ignoring.
The armor is for those children. Not their parents. AOC is literally saying that defending the lives of innocents matter more than attacking genociders. When they are mixed together, you can't target one without the other.
So yeah, the Iron Dome protects genociders, but it also protects their kids and other innocent people. It actually protects civilians and their children far more than it protects the politicians who don't even live there.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with the intent, but I don't agree with it. If the people of Israel have to face consequences for their actions, they might take a stand and force their government to stop. They aren't innocent until they're doing what they can to force a cessation of the violence. As long as they feel safe they won't feel the pressure to stand up. I don't like it when people die, but I also recognize that sometimes it can save lives in the long-term.
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You say that like it’s as simple as a choice. I’m in the US. I do not want to live in the US. I do not have the means to move out of the US. To be eligible for asylum, you need to prove that your life is threatened by staying in your resident nation.
I voted against Trump three times, lobby my congresspeople, and am an activist against the atrocities of this administration. Does that make me complicit in Trump’s actions? If so, how do you justify that?
I honestly wonder the population of the people in Israel for and against the war. Because, the origins of Israel is kinda rooted in Zionism and if you live there then you have to serve in the army doing whatever they make you do. But it always seemed like to me that whoever lives in Israel is totally fine with everything going on or just grit and deal with it but not taking too much action.
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I'm about to be shit on as a Zionist for defending the death of innocent children, but here goes:
Isreal is just as full of innocent children. They don't deserve to die for the genocide their parents are being tricked into ignoring.
The armor is for those children. Not their parents. AOC is literally saying that defending the lives of innocents matter more than attacking genociders. When they are mixed together, you can't target one without the other.
So yeah, the Iron Dome protects genociders, but it also protects their kids and other innocent people. It actually protects civilians and their children far more than it protects the politicians who don't even live there.
Why isnt there an iron dome on the Palestinian side if she really thinks the lives of the innocent are so damn precious? It's great they want to protect the children of the oppressors, but not the ones being attacked unprovoked? What's stopping them from stepping up for the actual casualties?
Wow, so much humanity.
Fucking hypocrites always trying to do a mental gymnastic to justify their crimes against humanity.
But whatever makes you sleep better at night.
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People just can't handle the fact that sometimes people who are generally good can be really really wrong and need to come to with dumbass conspiracies to explain it.
It's actually identical to why there's so many stupid conspiracy theories about everything. People can't handle the idea that the world is chaos
"really really wrong" is also an overstatement on a post that acknowledges and calls for and end to the genocide?
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It's not really the same I'd say. If you live in Israel, I feel like you can easily move elsewhere. Not sure, just me spitballing that many countries would be ok with them being granted asylum.
If you're in the US, you can also easily move elsewhere. The problem is not whether its legally possible or materially feasible, but whether it's ethical to force people to do so.
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Wow you are making an argument that Hamas runs a democratic state. Yikes. Wish you would have led with that it would have saved us all a lot of time.
By the way who said anything about defend? I know you've moved the goal post a hell of a lot during our conversation but that one's so far I left field I don't think it's in the galaxy.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I said they were elected into power. Do you believe Trump and the Republican-controlled Congress are representing their constituents in our representative democracy?
I have moved no goalposts. I maintain the defense of innocent civilians, regardless of their residence. This became a debate when you suggested there are no innocent civilians in Israel, simply because Netanyahu is the aggressor. That’s wildly narrow-minded.
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"really really wrong" is also an overstatement on a post that acknowledges and calls for and end to the genocide?
Of course she's against the genocide. I don't believe she's suddenly "tHe EnEmY" or whatever. But I do firmly believe that this vote was a complete mistake, as do many others. And being vocal about that is kind of our civic duty.
