No trickle...
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Most important? I'll never go into debt, just won't spend money I don't have. It's a no brainer for me.
Even if you're able to make that work on an individual level (never buy a home, don't get higher education, make sure you don't need a car), you can't make it work on a societal level.
If you want to contribute to supplying houses to people, you need to build the houses before you can sell/rent them (mostly). That means you need to take up a loan to pay for everything involved in building houses. Then you can sell/rent the houses to individuals that don't want to take up loans. Regardless of whether you personally ever take up a loan, you likely wouldn't have housing without someone doing it (unless you live on a family farm from waaay back), because the people that built it needed a loan to do so.
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Yeah, that statistic is obviously bullshit and people here should notice. They really should notice
It’s not like the statistic wanted to be noticed
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Even if you're able to make that work on an individual level (never buy a home, don't get higher education, make sure you don't need a car), you can't make it work on a societal level.
If you want to contribute to supplying houses to people, you need to build the houses before you can sell/rent them (mostly). That means you need to take up a loan to pay for everything involved in building houses. Then you can sell/rent the houses to individuals that don't want to take up loans. Regardless of whether you personally ever take up a loan, you likely wouldn't have housing without someone doing it (unless you live on a family farm from waaay back), because the people that built it needed a loan to do so.
The only expense for school besides the usual stuff(paper and pencils and such) were textbooks.
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The SP500 hitting highs is a lot less good news when you realize most of that is simply due to the dollar devaluing against other international currencies.
That isn't asset appreciation, it's currency devaluation.
EDIT:
I m on mobile and don't have the ability to make my own chart with DXY and SP500 normalized to each other, but uh...
https://portfolioslab.com/tools/stock-comparison/^DXY/SPY
Look at this in YTD, then in 1Y, then 5Y.
Normally, these two things move in the same dirrction, though the SP500 tends to grow much more when the DXY grows a little.
Well, now, basicslly since Trump took office, they're moving in the opposite direction.
So, yeah, this is now what is called a 'melt up', where stocks climb higher, but not because of any kind of underlying fundamental strength of the US economy but because the USD has lost about 10% of its value compared to the currencies it most often is traded against.
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I mean this sincerely: Am I missing something in their sources? None of their three sources about BNPL support the "60%" number for groceries.
https://pueblostarjournal.org/news/2025/06/03/shopping-buy-now-pay-later-groceries
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/04/26/americans-groceries-buy-now-pay-later-loans.html
CNBC mentions 60% of general admission tickets for Coachella being BNPL sales.
It and the other two articles state 41%-43% of generally surveyed people simply stating they used BNPL last year, not for what.
I'm not seeing any source for "60% of Americans using BNPL for groceries", and anecdotally that doesn't match anything I'm hearing/seeing in my day to day life. Economy's shit, but this feels a little "narrative"-y for my tastes.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Conversely, roughly 10%+ of the US has a negative net worth, ie, they owe more debt than they have assets.
https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2024/demo/p70br-202.pdf
And I say 10%+ because this is from 2022, and in general, credit scores have been nose diving and car/home loan delinquencies and tenant evictions have been skyrocketing, since 2022.
We've also got roughly ~40% at least using BNPL for something.
We also know that ... having a negative net wealth is, while not exclusive to poorer people/households in terms of their yearly income... it is much, much more strongly correlated with that.
Though this may change in 'fun' ways now that the housing market is collapsing, bye bye remnants of the 'middle class'!
So anyway, I think a more realistic number for uh... people who are worse than living paycheck to paycheck, people who are actually living paycheck to loan repayment...
Its somewhere between ~10% and ~40%.
... Which is still really fucking bad, as that means something aporoximating a quarter of society sre now just literally debt slaves.
...
So basically, we have:
A ~20% debt slave class,
A ~50% exploited and struggling worker class (who is often in total denial about this being the case),
A ~25% petitie bougeois, decently paid worker / small business owner class (who routinely gaslights and belittles everyone below them, and aspirationally sucks off and praises those above them),
A ~5% capitalist owner class, that gets astonishingly more powerful and wealthy as you increment up each percent and then tenth of a percent, etc.
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It's trickle up. You can see the cone in section 2. Increase h and the trickle trickles.
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...You assume that I haven't? I originally had to learn to budget when I was making less than minimum wage, to avoid homelessness. Budgeting can be even more important with less money.
You can't budget your way out of poverty. If income doesn't cover base survival, you simply are fucked.
There are surely people out there whose failure to plan has put them into a horrible and avoidable situation. But there are many more who make good choices and still end up horribly in debt. And for them, what's the point? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Canadian here, what's "AfterPay"? and PLEASE don't tell me it's like layaway or a payday loan or something.
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Try and make a budget for minimum wage. Many people can't afford to live even meagerly.
Why bother budgeting if you're just going to lose anyway?
I mean, to reduce your losses? I've had a budget balance out red, compared my options and been incredibly lucky. I would not have been quite as lucky if I'd just said 'fuck it' and zero'd out the balance.
Billionaires shouldn't exist, social support structures should be stronger, I have only succeeded based on community and relationships... But you gotta try at least.
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Try and make a budget for minimum wage. Many people can't afford to live even meagerly.
Why bother budgeting if you're just going to lose anyway?
wrote last edited by [email protected]I have, I mean you kinda HAVE to budget what little you bring in to ensure you don't end up on the streets. and it's not even about saving. saving was just a pipe dream. budgeting was just to ensure rent got paid, bills were paid, and I was able to eat sometimes.
I know people who make 6 figures and can't/won't budget and most live paycheque to paycheque or are absolutely broke just before their next direct deposit. I worked with a guy that made 6 figures and all the time just before payday he'd bum me for cigarettes or ask if I could buy him a coffee or a sandwich cause he had NOTHING. And this was a guy that would always have the latest tech shit, videogames on day one of release - like all of them, nice clothes, etc. just spend, spend, spend.
I've known more people who SHOULD be well off that don't budget and are constantly broke than people who make minimum wage and are surviving.
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Canadian here, what's "AfterPay"? and PLEASE don't tell me it's like layaway or a payday loan or something.
That's exactly what it is.
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I have, I mean you kinda HAVE to budget what little you bring in to ensure you don't end up on the streets. and it's not even about saving. saving was just a pipe dream. budgeting was just to ensure rent got paid, bills were paid, and I was able to eat sometimes.
I know people who make 6 figures and can't/won't budget and most live paycheque to paycheque or are absolutely broke just before their next direct deposit. I worked with a guy that made 6 figures and all the time just before payday he'd bum me for cigarettes or ask if I could buy him a coffee or a sandwich cause he had NOTHING. And this was a guy that would always have the latest tech shit, videogames on day one of release - like all of them, nice clothes, etc. just spend, spend, spend.
I've known more people who SHOULD be well off that don't budget and are constantly broke than people who make minimum wage and are surviving.
Budget? You pay what bills are most important now, and just buy the cheapest food possible. That's all there is to it
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Oh, I feel something trickling down alright.
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This is not debt, and I maintain my point. Debt is wrong
If you lend out your pen and they break or lose it, a little bit of trust between you dies. And this is something inevitable over time. If you give your pen to them and they give it back once they get their own pen, trust is built. If they don't, that's fine too... Because you gave it to them
You can't count favors, and you shouldn't have debts. Debts ruin relationships, it feels bad from both sides. It feels bad to know they owe you, it feels bad to owe a debt. It feels like a relief to have it paid back, but it doesn't feel good
You should help people, but when you give someone money to start their business you should never expect it back. You can spread ideas like honor and gratitude, but if the business fails you shouldn't feel like you lost something
If you take care of your parents because they raised you like a child, you're asking for elder abuse. In these cultures, the parents try to chip in however they can... In hard times historically they'd wander out into the wilderness to avoid burdening the family.
But the term for this is not debt, it's duty. A good person is patient with their children and their parents. A good person does what they can for their family, the whole way through
Shitty people take out their anger on their children and resent their parents for every bite of food
Fair enough, I can agree on some points, and agree to disagree on others, I believe our conceptions largely align even though the labeling is different
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The only expense for school besides the usual stuff(paper and pencils and such) were textbooks.
Idk about you, but while I was getting my free engineering degree in Norway I still had to pay for rent and food.
In principle, I could have studied part-time instead of full time, while working some job that doesn't require a degree, but I don't see how that would benefit anyone. Regardless, even if you have housing and food covered while studying, you still need money for books, paper, a computer, etc. so either you need a job (which, for a lot of degrees, means you'll be studying part-time), or you need a loan.
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The SP500 hitting highs is a lot less good news when you realize most of that is simply due to the dollar devaluing against other international currencies.
That isn't asset appreciation, it's currency devaluation.
EDIT:
I m on mobile and don't have the ability to make my own chart with DXY and SP500 normalized to each other, but uh...
https://portfolioslab.com/tools/stock-comparison/^DXY/SPY
Look at this in YTD, then in 1Y, then 5Y.
Normally, these two things move in the same dirrction, though the SP500 tends to grow much more when the DXY grows a little.
Well, now, basicslly since Trump took office, they're moving in the opposite direction.
So, yeah, this is now what is called a 'melt up', where stocks climb higher, but not because of any kind of underlying fundamental strength of the US economy but because the USD has lost about 10% of its value compared to the currencies it most often is traded against.
wrote last edited by [email protected]When the nixon administration abandoned the gold standard, stock prices rose, too. It's the same mechanism: avoid having cash as the currency devalues.
Is it atypical to learn this in school?
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Try and make a budget for minimum wage. Many people can't afford to live even meagerly.
Why bother budgeting if you're just going to lose anyway?
Self fulfilling profecy
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That's by design, the money flows from the average American to the companies. Then slowly trickles into the pockets of the ceo's.
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Conversely, roughly 10%+ of the US has a negative net worth, ie, they owe more debt than they have assets.
https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2024/demo/p70br-202.pdf
And I say 10%+ because this is from 2022, and in general, credit scores have been nose diving and car/home loan delinquencies and tenant evictions have been skyrocketing, since 2022.
We've also got roughly ~40% at least using BNPL for something.
We also know that ... having a negative net wealth is, while not exclusive to poorer people/households in terms of their yearly income... it is much, much more strongly correlated with that.
Though this may change in 'fun' ways now that the housing market is collapsing, bye bye remnants of the 'middle class'!
So anyway, I think a more realistic number for uh... people who are worse than living paycheck to paycheck, people who are actually living paycheck to loan repayment...
Its somewhere between ~10% and ~40%.
... Which is still really fucking bad, as that means something aporoximating a quarter of society sre now just literally debt slaves.
...
So basically, we have:
A ~20% debt slave class,
A ~50% exploited and struggling worker class (who is often in total denial about this being the case),
A ~25% petitie bougeois, decently paid worker / small business owner class (who routinely gaslights and belittles everyone below them, and aspirationally sucks off and praises those above them),
A ~5% capitalist owner class, that gets astonishingly more powerful and wealthy as you increment up each percent and then tenth of a percent, etc.
Oh, sorry. I'm definitely not trying to argue against the idea that the economy is shit or that the ever widening chasm between the "classes" is a massive fucking problem.
I'm fairly outspoken online about how I feel like the social justice movement (while critically important) that rose out of the ashes of Occupy Wallstreet was a ploy to get everyone below the 1% fighting each other. Won't go as far to say the only war is class war, but it's for sure the most inportant one.
I was specifically focused on the headline's claim of 60% using BNPL for groceries. We shouldn't need "alternative facts" to make our point.
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Well, it solves the problem of "I'm 25 years old with a decent paying job but no saved up capital, and need to buy <house/car/etc.>". Without taking on debt, I would need to save up for years to buy this stuff, but by taking on debt I can buy it now and "save up" (i.e. pay back) over the next years.
By all means, loans should be regulated in order to prevent people from taking on debt they can't afford, and to prevent/punish predatory practices. Debt in and of itself however can be a very good thing.
I have an apartment and a car now, with down-payments that I can afford without huge problems. Without taking a loan it probably would have taken me 25 years to be able to afford this. Except I wouldn't have, because the money I'm now using for down-payments would instead have gone to paying rent.
That's not a problem, that's a short cut.
In exchange for you being able to buy things before you can afford them, they're priced so it would take decades to save up.
Because if anyone sells their future, everyone has to if they want to compete
