Furries are cool
-
I understand the mechanics of it. I'm not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality. I am still repulsed by the attraction to anthropomorphic animals just as much as I am to the attraction to real animals - especially the furry art featuring non-human genitals. It's gross, it's weird, and it's a perversion of childhood themes that I would prefer not to be so public.
I'm not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality
You literally said in a comment further down:
I don't find porn in general disgusting. I find furry porn disgusting because it borders on bestiality.
It's perfectly valid for you to have the feelings of "It's gross, it's weird, and a perversion of my childhood themes. I don't like it, and I don't want to see it" because honestly; Same.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the "real" LGBTQ individuals.
It becomes especially problematic when you start equivocating it to things that are actually harmful like beastiality and is no different than the "all gays are pedophiles" trope.
-
I do not want to see this as a lever to justify excluding / persecuting LGBTQ folk
You are the one pushing the lever of exclusion by arguing to remove 'just a bit' of the Q from LGBTQ.
Re-read this thread replacing 'furry' with any other form of queer and tell me that there's no struggle, fighting, persecution, etc. An equivalent of what you just said would be:
The way they put it was that 'stonewall' was for drag rights as much as LGBTQ rights and my mind said: yeah but they did the fighting, they've been in the struggle, you just showed up in clown makeup wearing a dress.... my dawg...
Re-read this thread replacing ‘furry’ with any other form of queer
do the LGBTQ folk consider furry a form of queer? or is that just more of the same assumption on furry folks part?
honest query because that's a lot more important to me than furry folk considering themselves lgbtq.
-
I'm not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality
You literally said in a comment further down:
I don't find porn in general disgusting. I find furry porn disgusting because it borders on bestiality.
It's perfectly valid for you to have the feelings of "It's gross, it's weird, and a perversion of my childhood themes. I don't like it, and I don't want to see it" because honestly; Same.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the "real" LGBTQ individuals.
It becomes especially problematic when you start equivocating it to things that are actually harmful like beastiality and is no different than the "all gays are pedophiles" trope.
Again. I'm not conflating the two. You quote me on explaining why I personally find it disgusting. Then you tell me it's okay for me to have that feeling. Great. We're on the same page.
The problem isn't conflating anthropomorphic animal porn with animal porn, it's conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Edit: I will also add that I'm not arguing we do anything to furries. If you look for my calls to action, I'm clearly just arguing that people need to admit it's a fetish community. I'm not saying we need to shove furries in the closet or make it illegal to be a furry. However, even if I did say that it would be difficult to argue it's the same as violating LGBT rights because sex and gender are central to a person's identity while being a furry is not.
-
Again. I'm not conflating the two. You quote me on explaining why I personally find it disgusting. Then you tell me it's okay for me to have that feeling. Great. We're on the same page.
The problem isn't conflating anthropomorphic animal porn with animal porn, it's conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Edit: I will also add that I'm not arguing we do anything to furries. If you look for my calls to action, I'm clearly just arguing that people need to admit it's a fetish community. I'm not saying we need to shove furries in the closet or make it illegal to be a furry. However, even if I did say that it would be difficult to argue it's the same as violating LGBT rights because sex and gender are central to a person's identity while being a furry is not.
sex and gender are central to a person's identity while being a furry is not.
Sex and gender are clearly central to your identity, just as much as 'furry' is central, sometimes exclusively, to other people's identity.
it's conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Who are you to define what is or isn't a legitimate sexual or gender identity? Identity is a personal and subjective thing. For many 'furry' is a gender and/or sexual identity and to say that it isn't is no different than arguing with a trans person about theirs.
The issue isn't that you are explicitly making some call to action, it's that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not 'just part of the fetish community'?
-
Re-read this thread replacing ‘furry’ with any other form of queer
do the LGBTQ folk consider furry a form of queer? or is that just more of the same assumption on furry folks part?
honest query because that's a lot more important to me than furry folk considering themselves lgbtq.
In order to be welcomed into the "LGBTQ community" you must gain acceptance from the elder queers via the standard committee process. The specifics are written down within the gay agenda if you care to get into the weeds, but 'furry' is currently pending review and is in the queue after a consensus is reached on 'asexual'. /s
Serious answer:
- LGBTQ folk are not a monolith and neither are 'furry' folk.
- This folk, me, would include them as such if that is how they self-identify because that is how you treat people.
- You do see how your questions are othering and engaging in the worst kind of gatekeeping right?
-
sex and gender are central to a person's identity while being a furry is not.
Sex and gender are clearly central to your identity, just as much as 'furry' is central, sometimes exclusively, to other people's identity.
it's conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Who are you to define what is or isn't a legitimate sexual or gender identity? Identity is a personal and subjective thing. For many 'furry' is a gender and/or sexual identity and to say that it isn't is no different than arguing with a trans person about theirs.
The issue isn't that you are explicitly making some call to action, it's that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not 'just part of the fetish community'?
I'm not the one to define these terms. At best, furry is a case of gender expression, not gender identity. These are not the same concept, and I would argue that furry is not even gender expression since there isn't an underlying gender identity for it to express, though I am not an expert here.
The issue isn't that you are explicitly making some call to action, it's that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
That's not what I'm doing. Let me be clear about my central claim - the furry community is a fetish community. While I have given my personal feelings on the matter, my arguments have all been in service of this claim. Even if I were attempting to other furries, I wouldn't feel that bad on the basis that I don't believe it's a sexual orientation, sexual identity, or gender identity, rather I believe it's a fetish. However, that's not what I'm intending to do, though I admit that sharing my personal feelings on the matter may have come across that way.
If I did kink shame anybody, or otherwise make furries feel like inferior people, I want to apologize here. I don't have an issue with furries. I hope they can continue to enjoy their fetish. I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not 'just part of the fetish community'?
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that's brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
To give my answer, it's because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not defined by their pornographic material, sex toys, roleplay scenarios, or a shared hobby in the way that furry sexuality is.
-
I'm not the one to define these terms. At best, furry is a case of gender expression, not gender identity. These are not the same concept, and I would argue that furry is not even gender expression since there isn't an underlying gender identity for it to express, though I am not an expert here.
The issue isn't that you are explicitly making some call to action, it's that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
That's not what I'm doing. Let me be clear about my central claim - the furry community is a fetish community. While I have given my personal feelings on the matter, my arguments have all been in service of this claim. Even if I were attempting to other furries, I wouldn't feel that bad on the basis that I don't believe it's a sexual orientation, sexual identity, or gender identity, rather I believe it's a fetish. However, that's not what I'm intending to do, though I admit that sharing my personal feelings on the matter may have come across that way.
If I did kink shame anybody, or otherwise make furries feel like inferior people, I want to apologize here. I don't have an issue with furries. I hope they can continue to enjoy their fetish. I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not 'just part of the fetish community'?
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that's brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
To give my answer, it's because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not defined by their pornographic material, sex toys, roleplay scenarios, or a shared hobby in the way that furry sexuality is.
a case of gender expression, not gender identity.
When those don't align that's usually referred to as dysphoria/dysmorphia. That's what the fursuits are for, just like HRT, tattoos, piercings, clothing, etc.
I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
What it is, or what you perceive it to be? I don't disagree that fetish is a part of it, but that's true of any gender/sexuality etc. It's like flattening down all homosexuality to leather daddies.
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for "straight" and "gay". Would adding a "furry" site really feel all that strange or out of place?
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don't think that's as strongly correlated as you're suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I'm unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
-
In order to be welcomed into the "LGBTQ community" you must gain acceptance from the elder queers via the standard committee process. The specifics are written down within the gay agenda if you care to get into the weeds, but 'furry' is currently pending review and is in the queue after a consensus is reached on 'asexual'. /s
Serious answer:
- LGBTQ folk are not a monolith and neither are 'furry' folk.
- This folk, me, would include them as such if that is how they self-identify because that is how you treat people.
- You do see how your questions are othering and engaging in the worst kind of gatekeeping right?
of course, you can be gay and furry, but this doesn't answer the query which was: is furry lgbtq. does a cisgender, straight furry have any claim to the same struggle as stonewall - which was the comment that prompted my query.
you do see how you are continuing to confuse what should be a fairly straight-ahem-forward thing to answer, right?
because I don't see this as gatekeeping at all, I'm not in either community, but consider myself a strong ally of lgbtq people whom I've advocated for my adult life, both in and out of the military. I get that these things are very fluid for some people and titles / permissions aren't granted by the committee, BUT ALSO, I do listen to my lgbtq peers when they take exception to rando's hopping onto their float claiming it was built for them.
hence my genuine confusion. it's not an attempt to limit people's rights or to man the gates, it's a genuine question.
-
I may be wrong in my judgements
The issue is that you're conflating "furry sexuality" with beastiality when they come from very different places with very different outcomes and moral implications.
The short story is that humans at ~10yrs old start learning and coding for what features they find sexually attractive which happens to co-incide with the target audience for many anthropomorphic films/cartoons/etc. and so some small percentage start developing an aesthetic and/or sexual preference for animorphism which then creates a subculture that feeds back onto itself.
It's not "beastiality" it's "mickey mouse-iality". It's not a sexual attraction to animals, it does not result in harm to animals, it does not result in rape or consent violations from those unable to give consent. It's as close to beastiality as anime girls are.
It’s as close to beastiality as anime girls are.
that seems to bring up another issue, which is the overtly-cute, cartoon nature that seems to be very attractive to children.
I also find anime girls problematic as so much of that porn blurs the line between adults and children, which gets into some strange differences - apparently in japan, they don't consider depiction of minors as problematic as we do. I think it's outrageously creepy.so interesting thing to bring up, because some will find ALL OF THIS very off putting, and for good reason.
-
I'm not conflating furry sexuality with bestiality
You literally said in a comment further down:
I don't find porn in general disgusting. I find furry porn disgusting because it borders on bestiality.
It's perfectly valid for you to have the feelings of "It's gross, it's weird, and a perversion of my childhood themes. I don't like it, and I don't want to see it" because honestly; Same.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the "real" LGBTQ individuals.
It becomes especially problematic when you start equivocating it to things that are actually harmful like beastiality and is no different than the "all gays are pedophiles" trope.
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the “real” LGBTQ individuals.
yet I can totally see why LGBTQ people would NOT want to complicate their already assailed lives by defending the fursona types. life's hard enough explaining the intricacies of human sexuality without tossing in cartoon hypotheticals.
-
sex and gender are central to a person's identity while being a furry is not.
Sex and gender are clearly central to your identity, just as much as 'furry' is central, sometimes exclusively, to other people's identity.
it's conflating being a furry with sexual and gender identity.
Who are you to define what is or isn't a legitimate sexual or gender identity? Identity is a personal and subjective thing. For many 'furry' is a gender and/or sexual identity and to say that it isn't is no different than arguing with a trans person about theirs.
The issue isn't that you are explicitly making some call to action, it's that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not 'just part of the fetish community'?
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not ‘just part of the fetish community’?
because people are born with these predilections, they don't buy them off of temu.
-
a case of gender expression, not gender identity.
When those don't align that's usually referred to as dysphoria/dysmorphia. That's what the fursuits are for, just like HRT, tattoos, piercings, clothing, etc.
I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
What it is, or what you perceive it to be? I don't disagree that fetish is a part of it, but that's true of any gender/sexuality etc. It's like flattening down all homosexuality to leather daddies.
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for "straight" and "gay". Would adding a "furry" site really feel all that strange or out of place?
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don't think that's as strongly correlated as you're suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I'm unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for "straight" and "gay". Would adding a "furry" site really feel all that strange or out of place?
Porn categories do not define sexual orientations, so I do not understand your point. Sexual orientation is a description of the sexual characteristics of yourself and the people you are attracted too, neither of which are decided by whether or not either of you are furries.
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don't think that's as strongly correlated as you're suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I'm unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
I'm not claiming all furries do all those things. I'm saying that all of the characteristics that make someone furry sexual are covered by the categories I listed. None of the categories I listed are relevant to whether someone is heterosexual or homosexual.
Also, the hobby that many furries share (I never said all) is fur suiting.
-
I'm not the one to define these terms. At best, furry is a case of gender expression, not gender identity. These are not the same concept, and I would argue that furry is not even gender expression since there isn't an underlying gender identity for it to express, though I am not an expert here.
The issue isn't that you are explicitly making some call to action, it's that you are othering and implicitly calling for the persecution of other people based entirely on your personal aesthetics.
That's not what I'm doing. Let me be clear about my central claim - the furry community is a fetish community. While I have given my personal feelings on the matter, my arguments have all been in service of this claim. Even if I were attempting to other furries, I wouldn't feel that bad on the basis that I don't believe it's a sexual orientation, sexual identity, or gender identity, rather I believe it's a fetish. However, that's not what I'm intending to do, though I admit that sharing my personal feelings on the matter may have come across that way.
If I did kink shame anybody, or otherwise make furries feel like inferior people, I want to apologize here. I don't have an issue with furries. I hope they can continue to enjoy their fetish. I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not 'just part of the fetish community'?
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that's brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
To give my answer, it's because heterosexuality and homosexuality are not defined by their pornographic material, sex toys, roleplay scenarios, or a shared hobby in the way that furry sexuality is.
I have also made the claim that the misidentification of the furry community as a gender identity, sexual identity, or sexual orientation is harmful to the LGBT movement which exists to protect gender identities, sexual identities, and sexual orientations. To me, this question is a perfect example of the confusion that’s brought about by the conflation of furry sexuality with the LGBT movement that is harmful to the LGBT movement.
appreciate the nuance in this reply.
-
a case of gender expression, not gender identity.
When those don't align that's usually referred to as dysphoria/dysmorphia. That's what the fursuits are for, just like HRT, tattoos, piercings, clothing, etc.
I just want it to be recognized for what it is.
What it is, or what you perceive it to be? I don't disagree that fetish is a part of it, but that's true of any gender/sexuality etc. It's like flattening down all homosexuality to leather daddies.
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for "straight" and "gay". Would adding a "furry" site really feel all that strange or out of place?
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don't think that's as strongly correlated as you're suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I'm unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
fursuits are for, just like HRT
I think this vastly disregards the lifelong impacts of gender dysmorphia and is frankly kind of flippant.
-
Why are heterosexuality and homosexuality not ‘just part of the fetish community’?
because people are born with these predilections, they don't buy them off of temu.
Predilections for certain features, what makes you so certain anthropomorphism isn't one of those predilections?
-
Then what are heterosexuality and homosexuality defined by?
Pornographic material: Pornhub has entirely separate sites for "straight" and "gay". Would adding a "furry" site really feel all that strange or out of place?
Porn categories do not define sexual orientations, so I do not understand your point. Sexual orientation is a description of the sexual characteristics of yourself and the people you are attracted too, neither of which are decided by whether or not either of you are furries.
sex toys, roleplay scenarios: I don't think that's as strongly correlated as you're suggesting. Pony/pet play is big in the BDSM community and bad dragon toys were far from exclusively for furries. Unless you have something else in mind I'm unaware of?
Shared hobby: What exactly is the hobby all furries share?
I'm not claiming all furries do all those things. I'm saying that all of the characteristics that make someone furry sexual are covered by the categories I listed. None of the categories I listed are relevant to whether someone is heterosexual or homosexual.
Also, the hobby that many furries share (I never said all) is fur suiting.
Not categories, entirely different sets of content for:
- straight: pornhub.com
- gay: pornhub.com/gayporn
- trans: pornhub.com/transgender
- lesbian: ___ which is actually just a category and not a set of separate content___ oof___ pornhub.com/video?c=27
Sexual orientation is a description of the sexual characteristics
You are conflating sex and gender which are distinct things.
None of the categories I listed are relevant to whether someone is heterosexual or homosexual
Other than, arguably, pornography they don't seem to be overly relevant to furry either.
Also, the hobby that many furries share (I never said all) is fur suiting.
Apologies, I did misspeak with "all", however that's like saying trans people all share the hobby of crossdressing and it's just fetish wear. Fursuits serve the same function as gendered clothing or HRT for many individuals.
My overall point is that you should speak with more furries, there's more going on there than you choose to acknowledge. Reducing it all to "fetish" is harmful and does harm the overall LGBTQ+ community.
Questioning and invalidating another's gender or sexuality identity sets the precedent and framework for yours to be questioned and invalidated in turn.
-
It’s as close to beastiality as anime girls are.
that seems to bring up another issue, which is the overtly-cute, cartoon nature that seems to be very attractive to children.
I also find anime girls problematic as so much of that porn blurs the line between adults and children, which gets into some strange differences - apparently in japan, they don't consider depiction of minors as problematic as we do. I think it's outrageously creepy.so interesting thing to bring up, because some will find ALL OF THIS very off putting, and for good reason.
Yeah, if I'm honest I probably chose anime girls as my comparison point for that reason and because I also find it all a bit unappealing.
However, if someone was running around and saying anyone with an anime profile is a pedophile my response would be the same. Anime girls ultimately harm no-one.
-
of course, you can be gay and furry, but this doesn't answer the query which was: is furry lgbtq. does a cisgender, straight furry have any claim to the same struggle as stonewall - which was the comment that prompted my query.
you do see how you are continuing to confuse what should be a fairly straight-ahem-forward thing to answer, right?
because I don't see this as gatekeeping at all, I'm not in either community, but consider myself a strong ally of lgbtq people whom I've advocated for my adult life, both in and out of the military. I get that these things are very fluid for some people and titles / permissions aren't granted by the committee, BUT ALSO, I do listen to my lgbtq peers when they take exception to rando's hopping onto their float claiming it was built for them.
hence my genuine confusion. it's not an attempt to limit people's rights or to man the gates, it's a genuine question.
does a cisgender, straight furry have any claim to the same struggle as stonewall
If you read through this thread replacing "furry" with any other identity label the levels of discrimination and phobia should be extremely apparent, and this is a rather tolerant and accepting space for them compared to more general cultural attitudes.
Also it's not like stonewall was the struggle and now that that's done all the struggle is over. In my opinion the core of "the struggle" is to advocate for inclusivity of all those marginalized. There's a lot of marganilizing going on in this thread.
you do see how you are continuing to confuse what should be a fairly straight-ahem-forward thing to answer?
To some degree, but the problem is that gender and sexuality is not that straightforward. Do you have suggestions on how to make it less confusing?
I do listen to my lgbtq peers when they take exception to rando's hopping onto their float claiming it was built for them.
That's gatekeeping. The only thing it does is further wedge issues and perpetuate divide and conquer exploits. That argument and line of thinking is the exact same one that TERFs, etc. apply. I think they are unaware of the work that the furry community does to help propel that specific float if for no other reason than it adjusts the Overton window.
it's not an attempt to limit people's rights or to man the gates, it's a genuine question.
I know, which is why I'm engaging at all. I apologize as I'm a crotchety old person annoyed at having to constantly repeat the same thing over and over again which always seems to boils down to "discrimination is bad, yeah?". My frustration isn't directed at you and I apologize that it's leaking(spraying) out, but I'm trying to provide a genuine answer to a question with a flawed premise.
-
fursuits are for, just like HRT
I think this vastly disregards the lifelong impacts of gender dysmorphia and is frankly kind of flippant.
How does acknowledging someone else pain minimalist that of another's?
-
The problem comes when you start arguing that they need to be shoved into a closet in order to protect the children and the “real” LGBTQ individuals.
yet I can totally see why LGBTQ people would NOT want to complicate their already assailed lives by defending the fursona types. life's hard enough explaining the intricacies of human sexuality without tossing in cartoon hypotheticals.
As the TERFs say:
I can totally see why women would NOT want to complicate their already assailed lives by defending the gender non-conforming. life's hard enough explaining the intricacies of womanhood without tossing in crossdressing hypotheticals.
Not calling you a TERF, but you do see the logical fallacy you're sprinting straight into, right?
