nah it's natural
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Just like with debt, we can just raise the ceiling and the problem is fixed
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At what point on this graph is ecoterrorism justified?
but but but somebody was late for work!!!!! /s
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This is like the "both sides" argument in politics.
It resonates with people and encourages apathy supporting the status quo.
Its true that the actions of an individual aren't very impactful. Its also true that large corporations are responsible for the vast majority of the problem.
However, if no one bought products from those companies, or owned their shares, then they would exist.
While "no one" is not possible, what if everyone just used 5% less, or 5% of people switched to an "ethical" 401k / pension funds that didn't invest in these companies.
We dont need a few people doing climate mitigation perfectly, we need everyone doing climate mitigation imperfectly.
It sounds like such a small change, yet we're unable to achieve it.
For example, here in Australia our conservative party is presently trying to discard our pathetic carbon emissions targets saying they're unachievable.
Ah, but is it apathy to support the systematic teardown of these major sources? Like actually destroying private jets for instance
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It isn't too late now. Apparently AI is a good target - eating a world's supply of electricity to further enrich the billionaires while continuing to muddy the science of climate change. Wish people were as upset about that as they are about their porn being restricted.
You're selling AI short. It also guzzles water at a rate that could make a golf course blush.
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A lot of ordinary people voted for politicians that promised them cheap gas and cost of living, instead of the ones wanting to build a sustainable future.
A lot of ordinary people, both young and old, bought, and are still buying into the lies of corporate America because our media is controlled by corporations.
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This is like the "both sides" argument in politics.
It resonates with people and encourages apathy supporting the status quo.
Its true that the actions of an individual aren't very impactful. Its also true that large corporations are responsible for the vast majority of the problem.
However, if no one bought products from those companies, or owned their shares, then they would exist.
While "no one" is not possible, what if everyone just used 5% less, or 5% of people switched to an "ethical" 401k / pension funds that didn't invest in these companies.
We dont need a few people doing climate mitigation perfectly, we need everyone doing climate mitigation imperfectly.
It sounds like such a small change, yet we're unable to achieve it.
For example, here in Australia our conservative party is presently trying to discard our pathetic carbon emissions targets saying they're unachievable.
It's the truth
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I like Joshua's answer here. The mental gymnastics is insane
I really don't see how slaying the planet in a magical way is so different than slaughtering the planet in a greedy astroturfing way? After giving mass ff7 lore he just convulse into rants about how bad antifa is and nobody even asked. The megacorps and their lobbyists ARE killing our planet and using faschism and world order war.. the fucking boreal is our Mako. If they burn, similarly no new soul will be born.
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No,No, not continue as normal, actively contributing to and profiting of. And engaging in generational bickering; In fact telling kids (!) Yes! kids! That.. (checks notes)..they have autism (??) in response to them screaming att the old farts to do something. As if that was not enough, a guy painted his skin orange and spent his power on destroying climate research data. On actually hunting it down in Arctic stations to delete it.
The wealth that was "generated" was systematically funneled into symbols to a handful of senile males that never spent a penny, but for sometimes when they brunt a chunk of the gold on making sure every adult continues to bicker with their kids and continually actively release kilotons of carbon into the stratosphere as a "ritual".
Because even though we had clean propulsion and energy available, the insane carousel of madness could stop if we didn't ride the ton metal beasts every day and it's not far then before people realize that the wealth and power is all just symbolic. All just a number in a computer on Panama. An unphantomable number, to be sure, oh it is very, very unphantomable, but as a legacy goes, the new names for big numbers we had to invent -- it wasn't even that good? A googol of gold? Is that supposed to be a joke? Is really it so funny? Is calling one of the megacorporations "googlog" like.. a meme to them? Is this their "doge"? It's so dry, but it fits.. That they might just.. Find it funny to say. Guess it tends to happen with made up currency.
The worldslacht though, isn't even profitable any more in the symbolic sense. They have to pay for oil rigs, astroturfing, oil rigs, war, class war, culture war, media entertainment, fracking rigs, haulers, astroturfing, oil spills, new huge boats with a pool, art to write off tax with, and really it's all ending in a whimper as the entire golden age we should have had was swallowed by their immense greed. Movies are about oil and cars. Wars are about cars. Some culture wants to live in a house? No, your land is now a parking. Huge spaces, just a place where we store our ton metal beasts that chug benzenes and scream at the sky to move us walking distance. They have to be placed in a painted rectangle on a flat surface and we have a most important war over who has what painted square.
If you think we respect our metal beasts then no, we crush the ton metal beasts and build new ones constantly so we can have a little war over who has the newest and hottest model. It is said that person gets to mate more often. But I truly wonder what mates were gained this way.
It is cool to have larger vehicles, but only up to a specific point, if you share your ride then it is no longer a mating ritual. If you ride too many, you are instead redicculed. "Don't you have your own ton metal beast?" No, to really stand out with feathers cocked, you have to ride your metal beast alone. One person per beast. If you really need a mate to nest with get a really heavy or fast or flying metal beast, and use it to go alone. It signals status. Fuckability.
That you have your own several ton metal beast roaring, yes sometimes actually emptying the carbon in the sky directly when exploding the oil it apparently requires to propel tonnes of metal.. for one single guy (and sometimes a mate or two). This is the dream. This is true freedom. To spend incredible amounts to move several tons of metal, just to transport one guy a little more comfortably than if they went on a rail. Did I mention, by the way, that yes we actually had already invented rails. It just didn't make its way to America yet. It's... (checks notes again) ..too expensive.
Well they will all be dead soon, leaving only the kids with the aftermath of what seems like a party, but actually was only a mess that sincerely wasn't worth it as the profits of all work just sit there, completely unused potential to at least do something they would want with it. I mean something fun and stupid while they have the opportunity to actually do anything with the whole world as their playground. But like a child that does not want to share, its only purpose is to point out how much better than everyone else these senile few was.
And yeah that was a feverish century everyone else seemingly worshipped and adored these elite.. except the kids. And they were rediculed because they were autistic and adhd and all other institutional psychological distress, but of course never heard for their very clear "how dare you, shitheads?". The darned kids. But the legacy of the elite that forced the world to toil for oil will truly go down in history as utter tools. It is just sad that they mauled the planet into a death spiral that seems to end our species. It was kind of a childish thing to do, ironically.
Hey man, can I get a couple Adderall?
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If you're a European/American/Oceanian with a bank account in the black, you're probably in the global 1% who use six times your share.
Look, I'm not an ecofascist, but if I was, I'd be saying kill all white people. Instead, because I'm generally a nonviolent person, I'm saying slash the tires on white people's cars. And anyone else who lives in a majority white country. These are places where most of the population are the global 1%.
No that is still not class war, you are talking about race war now
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I like Joshua's answer here. The mental gymnastics is insane
Wow, I couldn't get through that... Feel like it's a sign of some mental issues to produce that much word diarrhea in a Quora answer...
But yeah, "the bombings in the game and their collateral damage including death of civilians are good, but you know what is truly evil? Some people that mostly just hold up protest signs and stand around protesting Trump."
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Parents naturally have children. Children that will very much be alive to experience the "find out" part. I am incapable of comprehending how shortsighted and self centered someone has to be to be like: Well, at least I had a nice life, good luck everybody!
And on a low level, they're kind of right because most ordinary people aren't to blame for this, so shaming "parents" makes no sense.
Shame the international petroleum conglomerates, plastic producers, shipping, etc. You know, the actual emitters in the billions of gigatons.
I agree that ordinary people are only partly to blame and that we need to focus on the worst offenders. However, the indifference of large parts of previous generations surely enabled much of the current situation. Most of our parents could vote, most had a chance to drive a tiny bit of change in some kind of way. Some even held positions of power or still do. Putting some blame on them surely isn't wrong, especially if they still don't care.
Aaaaaaaaah i hate that this is what we say to that argument!! Why does it end there? Like "its the megacorporations." Oh ok then nobody is to blame.
No.
Actually
The megacorporations are to blame. Attack.
The megacorps are run by people (so far) but if you kill one lackey, the corp replaces them (without mourning I might add), so how can anyone attack the corp and not the people? The law? No it stops there?Huh, so these mega evil entities are destroying the planet? Huh. Well doesn't look like anything to me? Yet they can lobby and decide laws? Is that how good we are at fighting then?
They are pure demonic world eaters and have lobbyed to become legal persons. To be the only entities without soul that can be considered a legal person in our legal system. If that system is broken to that degree.. well, if they are persons, then they can bleed. And die. I am not this weak at fighting for my planet
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He's also delusional if he thinks AGI is coming if you just keep pumping up LLMs.
We didn't invent the automobile by breeding faster, and faster, horses.
I don't think any serious ai researcher things that
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You dont understand. The poor billionairs need their money nowwww!
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Shh, we don't want to talk about that, car is comfy
On a more serious level, the type of AI that all the energy is being used for, generative AI, is not particularly necessary. Transportation often is. There are types of AI that are ridiculously useful, like the one that does protein folding, or a lot of machine learning algos that classify things for X or Y business reason... But LLMs and image generation are a fucking novelty.
Do you think these are just different technologies that happened to have been developed simultaneously? These are all from the same spark. Neural networks giving rise to emergent unexplainable phenomenon when prodded in very very specific ways. Ai research is almost all trying to understand how the fuck that happens and why it can do all these things.
Radiology is a good use case. Ai porn maybe not so much.
But as god help me. You are saying that cruising in a several ton metal missiles, often alone, back and fourth over the planet or to McDonalds is necessary! No transportation isn't often necessary! Americans often say this but DUH you didn't build sidewalks or trains! You astroturfed the shit out of oil. This is very embarrassing, I get it, but GOD DANN NO transportation with exploding dinosaurs that you frack out of gorgeous boreal forests ISNT NECESSARY AT ALL, we have invented train, bus, bicycle, electric cars, please for god sake stop working for astroturfing oil company proxies and get a fucking bike and then spit and be rude to all single drivers in all cities.
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Nobody is going fast enough.
The fastest efforts going right now are half assed solutions.
I don't think you understand how urgently fucked we are.
Climate scientists are scientists. They can only tell youbwhat thry know. Science inherently moves slow, moves with certainty. Kind of the best thing about it.
But all these climate models keep getting hit with 'shit we didnt know could happen' and 'feedback effect nobody's ever seen before', even the grim ones.
So however bad the models are, we are more fuckef than that.
The turn radius on this thing is so slow that we may already be past the point of no return. Everything from here on might be a death rattle. Maybe, if you're young, from before you were born. We don't know how bad it is, we have sort of repeatedly proven that we can't know how bad it is, and all we know is how good it isn't.
And babe, its not good enough to be so fucking casual about shit.
Whatever effect you are currently feeling is the effect from our collected fuckedness 30 40 50 years ago. However fucked this summer felt? Thats the damage we had accrued and sent out when your parents were born.
Edit: we need to be at zero cars zero meat zero fossil fuels and decarbonizing as much production as we possibly can by now. We told the timeline where we could switch over gently to fuck off and die 50 years ago. I wasnt even fucking born yet. We told the timeline where we coukd just cut the shit and practice purely technical solutions with little lifestyle change (beyond things that are mostly good for us anyway) to fuck off and die 25 years ago. We let this go untreated, and now that the body is so wracked with cancer it's effecting our range of motion, and the doctors are desperately scrambling to set up a course of radical chemo radiation starvation and cutting to the bone in the desperate hope that there's still room for luck, we have decided that okay, maybe we might feel a little under the weather, and we can finally take the doctor's advice, and treat that upstart henry ford fellow with a baby asprin. But nothing crazy is called for here!
Am i the only one who feels insane when i have to explain this?
wrote last edited by [email protected]This kind of talk isn't really useful and is making the problem worse. Where are you getting all this from? You must have some good sources to make claims like this.
There wasn't a time line 25 years ago where we could use only technological solutions as said technological solutions didn't exist. Those have only been invented since then, many still haven't been invented or are still being worked on now. Take batteries for example, it took us until the 2010s to manufacture enough lithium ion batteries with the right chemistry to even think about using them as grid storage. Said batteries still have limited lifespans and manufacturing them is costly to the environment and requires lithium which has a limited supply. We really need Sodium ion batteries but those are only ramping production now. Starting to switch over 50 years ago would have been even more impossible, not that we understood the problem fully 50 years ago. This is all revising history.
Fyi CO2 levels have been higher in the past than they are now. None of this is actually new, it's just changing far faster than it would naturally. It's the speed that's the issue, not the actual magnitude of the change. It's a case of changing things faster than nature takes to adapt. We are still technically in an ice age after all. Pollutants like microplastics and forever chemicals are the new thing, not greenhouse gasses. No one has any idea what that might lead to in the long term.
You feel insane because your suggesting things should have happened before they are actually possible. You are saying things that are extremely alarmist without giving evidence and without considering context.
Edit:
There was one way to decarbonize earlier than 25 years ago or maybe before. It's called Nuclear. I wonder who prevented that? Oh wait it was climate activists. Funny that. -
I don't think this is gonna be a very popular response but here's my 2 cents after reading a lot of comments.
We are all products of out time. I'm not gonna blame ordinary people for believing what they were told when it was the general consensus at the time.
That doesn't excuse that behavior today. Today we know better.
But when my parents grew up, burning your garbage in the fire pit was considered recycling. It was the norm.
Today my parents and grandparents don't burn plastic in a fire pit. Because today we know better. But I don't think they ignored it 40 years ago. They just didn't know better.
Good thing we educate people on how to do what we can. Unfortunately, what individuals do doesn't matter much.
In school I did a project on climate change and in that research, I found that 1 single coal PowerPlant in Germany, released more co2, sulfur, monoxide and what not, in 1 month. Than every single registered vehicle in Sweden combined, does in a whole year.
So being a good citizen and taking my bike to the store and work instead of car (even during winter). Feels like a fart in the wind knowing that. Not to mention cargo-ships and what they use on international waters.
Exactly this. I tried to recycle paper in the 90s in my country and could not for the life of me find out where to go. I had come home from living in a country that did have recycling bins on every corner but even driving around, I could find zero paper recycling.
Even when aware and trying our best, we are quite powerless in general.
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Your parents ignored this
I've been hearing about climate change consistently since the 1980s. Multiple iterations of liberal (and moderate conservative) politician have campaigned on a variety of (free market) mechanisms for capping or curbing carbon emissions. We even had a huge surge in R&D for green energy alternatives and electrification - first in the 70s and then again during the gas cost explosion of the 00s - that is (thank fucking god) finally paying off.
So I won't say they "ignored this". I will say that we had a very wealthy, very influential minority entrenched within the political class that profited enormously from fossil fuel extraction and deliberately suppressed decades of prior efforts to reduce emissions, both domestically and globally.
The Boomers weren't blind to climate change. They weren't even apathetic. They were outmatched, outplayed, and outspent. Much like with slavery in the 1800s and women's liberation in the 1900s and human rights in the 2000s, this is a fight that liberals have spent a lot of time losing. What wins they achieved felt significant in the moment, but remained dwarfed by the stubborn intractability of their wealthy, reactionary opposition.
Yep it just is a class war always with humans.
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We did manage to change some things for the better - acid rain, ozone depletion, lead in everything. However with conflicting information and some corporations doing everything they can to muddy the consensus, it is hard to do the right thing. It is especially difficult if for years you think you've been doing the right thing and find out it was all fake - recycling.
And yet, I still recycle because what the hell else can I do? Just give up and send to landfill? Or hope in the dark that it's going to recycling.
We already reuse and reduce, I have some clothing from over 20 years ago.
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Altman isn't sticking his head in the sand, he's delusional and selfish. He doesn't care what happens to the rest of the world after AGI.
...and in the past we were fighting and losing to similar billionaire corporatist figures.
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Not to be that person, but my parents are completely incapable of comprehending this.
Not intellectually, but pragmatically and philosophically. They're like 60 years old, and even if it affects them in their lifetime, they'll be "dead in 20 years".
And on a low level, they're kind of right because most ordinary people aren't to blame for this, so shaming "parents" makes no sense.
Shame the international petroleum conglomerates, plastic producers, shipping, etc. You know, the actual emitters in the billions of gigatons.
but pragmatically and philosophically. They’re like 60 years old, and even if it affects them in their lifetime, they’ll be “dead in 20 years”.
Imagine saying this as if human prosperity wasn't built on people building places for their children and grandchildren.
Capitalism is one of very few philosophies that pretends that selfishness is good, and it would be silly not to blame people that believe in it for the consequences of that philosophy when implemented.
Ordinary western citizens are to blame, because ordinary western citizens could have changed this merely by being morally offended and voting for something else. Most of them personally chose to support capitalism over any alternative. To not even explore the space of possibilities, but to get paid off by corporate-government partnerships that were robbing both the future and the rest of the world.
