What is your opinion on national pride / patriotism?
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Believe it or not, I’ve been a part of it since I was born. I didn’t just come to be in a vacuum. I’ve influenced the society as much as anyone, we work together to make it better, we are a team, we protest. We sign petitions. We vote. We talk and talk and talk and have kids that will, too, become a part of what we’ve worked hard for and against and with.
Being proud of the team, of yourself, or the fact that you with your team are actively succeeding in not becoming a fascist shithole like the US or Russia for example. It’s not nothing. It’s worth being proud of. And takes effort, work, input every single day of every single month of every single year.
Yeah. I’m proud of myself and everyone around me. But I’m also proud of what we’ve worked together to build. This country did not stay this way by itself. It’d be ruined by capitalism and fascism the second we, the people of this country, stopped fighting against it and making this nation something to feel proud belonging to.
Hey, fair enough, that seems pretty reasonable. If it's an extension of the pride you feel in being a decent human being who makes his environment better for everyone and it doesn't veer into jingoistic exceptionalism, I understand and condone it.
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Patriotism is being proud of being born and grown up in a certain random place.
This is what is left for those who never achieved anything worthy of being proud of on their own.
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And even then, I was just proud to have been part of the team with which I achieved the performance.
Isn't that what the patriotic people experience as well?
They vote, they pay taxes, they're sometimes politically active. From their point of view, they've contributed to the success of their country, and they're proud of it?
They vote, they pay taxes, they're sometimes politically active. From their point of view, they've contributed to the success of their country, and they're proud of it?
Does that work the same way when the country performs its atrocities? Everyone becomes implicit in those crimes because they voted and paid taxes that is used to kill civilians abroad? Or it just applies for "feel good" reasons?
Just because you do what most people do, doesn't validate being proud of other peoples hard work that actually bring change.
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This is a good commentary on it:
It's good to want to improve the world around you, which can be given a label of patriotism. Going too far down that road leads to lots of unhappiness, though.
arbitrary bullshit, we're just picking which words to like and dislike now. neither of those words mean what that comic says
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first off, we need to drop this false dichotomy between arbitrary words like patriotism and nationalism. it's not as simple as "good vs bad" or "moderate vs excess". you're talking about two completely different points of pride.
nationalism is pride in a shared identity between people; patriotism is pride in the state of a country. and you ask for my opinion: both are bullshit.
I like how someone referenced schopenhauer. I prefer Sartre. In "antisemite and jew" he wrote about how the bigot, by putting down another group, instantly promotes himself into a group of the chosen ones, the good guys -- all without doing anything.
that's what pride in a group identity often does. elevates yourself based on the accomplishments of others. it's a substitute for character.
HOWEVER we cannot dismiss all collective pride this way. when a group we actually belong to and contribute to actually does something good, why not be proud of it? the trouble is, the more people you involve in this collection, the less any single individual needs to actually DO to contribute.
that's why I honestly believe nationalism is less toxic than patriotism: because there can be many smaller groups (nationalism) within a country (patriotism).
the anarchist perspective is that a nation is a PEOPLE and the state is a parasite. patriotism is pride in the state, not the people. why be proud of tapeworms?
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I would sincerely love to talk about the dynamics of America's collapse as it is a special interest of mine, but this is lemmy and no rational discussion survives for more than 10 minutes so please understand when I make this statement, I'm not having a discussion. I am making a point, and ignoring all replies to it.
The difference between America and the U.S.S.R.'s collapse is that the majority of manufacturing, data infrastructure, wealth, trade ports, and cultural cultural centers are in overwhelmingly blue areas which have access to their own military and militias. The fascists won't be getting the whole country, they won't even be getting the good parts of the country either. When it comes to outside aid as well, blue areas have the advantage as the two biggest salt water ports in the nation are in strongly blue zones, and I guarantee the fascists won't be getting aid from most of Europe. We saved a lot of countries and now they know it'll be time to pay that back.
It will be bloody and senseless and will last around ten years. And I hope to fuck this time they don't fumble fucking Reconciliation. All traitors must hang or we will just get another crop next year.
And this could ALL have been prevented if you fuckers had just handled Gamergate for the joke like it was instead of catapulting it to international consciousness. If you want to know where all the MAGA rats came from, and where they learned to manipulate media? Bannon and his assholes cut their teeth on Gamergate and now we have fascism
The fucking hilarious part is that all of you coming after who will argue this obvious point because you are bored and like to see yourselves type.
lol. iamverysmart.
Seriously dude, look up epistemic humility. Will things be bad in the future? Yes, in some ways. Will things be good in the future? Yes, in some ways. What ways? I don't know. No one knows. That's how time works. If I'm going to take you seriously, post your polymarket track record that shows you outperforming everyone else. Until then, you're just a doomer jerking off to the apocalypse.
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It's hard to comment on the flavors of national pride in nations other than the one I live in, but I think if you're an American patriot, you either 1) are proud of horrendous, immoral things, 2) are proud of a mythologized nation-state that stands for liberty and justice which never actually existed.
Eh, I'm proud to be an American. But I also generally like the people around me, and when I think of "Americans", I think of my friends who I like. I'd also note that I'm pretty proud to be a Coloradan. Our state government kicks ass!
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You can be proud of the good things your country has done or is doing. So long as you don't forget the laundry list of dodgy shit it has also done.
I liken it to being proud of yourself as a person. You can take pride in yourself and your achievements but you should never forget all the times you fucked up.
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Its crucial for a nation to have. Its good for citizens to unify around goals and achievements but to much can lead to a big head and losing the ability to accurately self reflect and self asess.
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They vote, they pay taxes, they're sometimes politically active. From their point of view, they've contributed to the success of their country, and they're proud of it?
Does that work the same way when the country performs its atrocities? Everyone becomes implicit in those crimes because they voted and paid taxes that is used to kill civilians abroad? Or it just applies for "feel good" reasons?
Just because you do what most people do, doesn't validate being proud of other peoples hard work that actually bring change.
Nationalism becomes unhealthy in such endeavours. So no, it doesn't apply.
Much like cheering for your local sports team is ok. Going to the other town to fight them isn't. But just because you cheer on your team and want the to win, doesn't implicate you for the actions of others.
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Patriotism is being proud of being born and grown up in a certain random place.
This is what is left for those who never achieved anything worthy of being proud of on their own.
this thread is bringing all the Thatcherites out
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Nationalism (and by extension patriotism) was an amazing tool to bring people together in a nation, when coming from a past of small kingdoms, city states and similar smaller communities.
Now it's done it's job and it's time we get past that.
THIS I agree with! Nations and patriotism have been out-moded by supra-national corporate conglomerates, banks, and cartels.
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It's literally a sin. Stop it.
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Chauvinism?
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lol. iamverysmart.
Seriously dude, look up epistemic humility. Will things be bad in the future? Yes, in some ways. Will things be good in the future? Yes, in some ways. What ways? I don't know. No one knows. That's how time works. If I'm going to take you seriously, post your polymarket track record that shows you outperforming everyone else. Until then, you're just a doomer jerking off to the apocalypse.
lol. iamverysmart.
Literally no one who has ever posted that kind of reply has anything useful to contribute in over 12 years of that sub existing
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Collective pride is real and there are a lot examples of it, but it works with small sized groups and when it does it feels great. Because of course we're a social species, but our monkey brain is built around tribes and doesn't conceive whole nations.
And that's why, for example, when I see people cheering for an athlete just because all their parents happened to fuck within the same imaginary lines, I find it really silly.But I know that's me, I have no problems with people who have a healthy national pride. I'm just saying I don't and never had.
You're comparing two things:
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Actually observed collective pride in nations
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Pride in hypothetical tribal bands that may have never existed
And saying the first is "silly" but the second is what we're built for.
Understanding collective pride in its actual form is less silly than pushing into some dreamed-of past.
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National pride can be a dead end in liberation or, when, as Otto Bauer argued, applied rationally towards the end of liberation, a means by which the proletariat of the nation can gain access to and ownership of the national wealth.
"Scholarship is able to explain to us the emergence of the national sentiment from national consciousness, the emergence of the curious national form of evaluation from the national sentiment. But it is also able to criticize this national evaluation. And this is a task of no little significance. For it is only the critique of national ideology that can produce the atmosphere of sobriety that alone makes a fruitful examination of national politics possible."
A national consciousness emerges when we meet people from other nations. We then become aware of that feature and gain a national sentiment or pride. An evaluation of the national form creates a good member of the national. This can, without critically or rationally evaluating it, lead to racist thinking or blaming certain groups for the nation's ills. However, a class evaluation can prevent this and a rational critique of the nation can give the proletariat access to the full cultural wealth of the nation which had only been previously reserved for the elites.
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You're comparing two things:
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Actually observed collective pride in nations
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Pride in hypothetical tribal bands that may have never existed
And saying the first is "silly" but the second is what we're built for.
Understanding collective pride in its actual form is less silly than pushing into some dreamed-of past.
When you say "pride in hypotetycal tribal bands that may have never existed" what do you mean? You don't believe that human beings evolved in tribes or don't believe the members of these tribes felt a sense of common well-being that we call "pride" which have helped our evolution?
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And it’s fucking our country so bad that we won’t be a world power in 20 years
Unfortunately, I very much doubt that. Look at Russia, it's even worse than the USA AND has a far worse economy, yet it's still a major power.
Holy shit, do we have a copypasta comm on Lemmy? That reply you got is brilliant, especially the beginning:
I would sincerely love to talk about the dynamics of America's collapse as it is a special interest of mine, but this is lemmy and no rational discussion survives for more than 10 minutes so please understand when I make this statement, I'm not having a discussion. I am making a point, and ignoring all replies to it.
Love it.
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It's literally a sin. Stop it.
Is that Roman pride?
