Incident
-
I have to log timesheets at work to say what I've been doing. I have a section everyday in my timetable schedule to fill in the timesheet. So when I'm filling in the timesheet I have to actually tell them what I was doing for that 4 minutes worth of time.
3:30 p.m. to 3:34 p.m. - filling in timesheet
Really?
This was unironically one of the worst jobs I ever worked. Management spent months trying to figure out why the night shift couldn't keep up with the same routine work day shift did.
For some reason 2 people < 25 people never really clicked.
-
If I had a kid I would want them to spend as much time as possible looking after the kid. I don't need them to tell me that they're doing that, I assumed that they're doing that so I'm no better off.
Also everyone estimates those things anyway.
Sorry but it's obvious you don't have kids. You need to know when and how much formula your baby had to not overfeed them. You need to know what a toddler ate if he comes home and throws up/has diarrhea/gets a sudden rash. You need to know when his diaper was changed so you know if you need to change it again when you get home. Etc. You really need that info, and people working in daycare absolutely don't ballpark this as they need to know it as well and they have 18 other kids to take care of so they can't remember it all.
-
Don't think it's system timestamps, as they're curiously rounded
I suppose it could be possible that the humans are entering it, also possible the timestamps are just being rounded by the system. Guess it's hard to say, though I still say that a daycare that includes infants can reasonably be expected to log this sort of activity in case something goes wrong that would only show up as a loss of appetite or lack of bowel movement or explaining an otherwise unrecognized injury incurred during an assasination.
-
just rounding to the nearest 10 for display purposes.
I was referring to the amount of them. 3 in half an hour
For no good reason.the law says if you felt the need to do..
Luckily the law is different where I live. I'd rather have my child taken care of by a human, instead of a flowchart
Do you have a different criteria
When the caretaker feels like something important happened
Oh, I assumed you thought people were spending a lot of time entering timestamps. Do you think this is a particularly onerous process for them, or that the parents need to like, acknowledge each log? They just push a button to select the kid and tap another to select the event. Maybe type a description if it's an incident report. It's significantly easier for them than logging it any other way, and it ensures parents get the information on food, diapers and whatnot.
I am confused how you see this as care by flowchart. Daycare staff aren't medical professionals. They aren't qualified to make objective decisions about what's an "important" event to notify parents of in a consistent manner. What country are you in where the parental notification laws are "I dunno, if you feel like it I guess"?
-
30 times 5 seconds is 2.5 minutes, and that's for a stupendously overworked person. Like "CPS call" levels of understaffing at what would be an unlicensed facility.
A more realistic number is under a minute per hour.that is if everything is going to plan and you just have to press the childs button and action, but you also have to get the device at the time to so you should at least add in 5 seconds for that. But again, children are not like this, so the care giver once per hour I am sure is having to type out some dumb thing this human just did, So I would say that 5 min to 10 min is spent on logging and tending the human that fell or freaked out.
-
A few minutes talking to you (and every other parent at pickup) is way, way, waaaaay more time than the 5 seconds it takes to log each thing. You say "just," but your request is at least 10x as expensive.
its your child, you should WANT to talk to these people, they are not robots, you want to know their insights and maybe how the environment and mood of the place is.
-
its your child, you should WANT to talk to these people, they are not robots, you want to know their insights and maybe how the environment and mood of the place is.
It's like you haven't read a single reply
-
Oh, I assumed you thought people were spending a lot of time entering timestamps. Do you think this is a particularly onerous process for them, or that the parents need to like, acknowledge each log? They just push a button to select the kid and tap another to select the event. Maybe type a description if it's an incident report. It's significantly easier for them than logging it any other way, and it ensures parents get the information on food, diapers and whatnot.
I am confused how you see this as care by flowchart. Daycare staff aren't medical professionals. They aren't qualified to make objective decisions about what's an "important" event to notify parents of in a consistent manner. What country are you in where the parental notification laws are "I dunno, if you feel like it I guess"?
What country are you in where the parental notification laws are "I dunno, if you feel like it I guess"?
Belgium. There's no laws whatsoever that mandate notifications. They'll just tell you if something important happens
-
that is if everything is going to plan and you just have to press the childs button and action, but you also have to get the device at the time to so you should at least add in 5 seconds for that. But again, children are not like this, so the care giver once per hour I am sure is having to type out some dumb thing this human just did, So I would say that 5 min to 10 min is spent on logging and tending the human that fell or freaked out.
Going based on my kids daycare, it's really not a problem. You're talking 30:1 kids to caregivers, and 8:1 is over the legal limit.
Like, I've hung out in the daycare. I've talked to the caregivers. It's not nearly the way you seem to think. They like it because it's easier than the documentation they would be keeping for their own purposes.
I'm typing this having just gotten back from dropping the kids off with them and hanging out chatting for a bit.If the kid fell and bumped his head, I'm sure they are spending about five minutes logging and tending to them. Probably 20 seconds typing after 3 or 4 minutes putting an ice pack on it, giving them a hug and letting them sit on their lap.
-
It's like you haven't read a single reply
its like you havent read what I said, You should want to talk to these people, dont treat them as a resource, they are caring for your children. This is the same with their teachers, you should want to talk to them, even more than the scheduled times.
You seem to think squeezing as much productivity out of them is the goal, but if we treated them like humans you might do better for them and in the long run your children.
-
Going based on my kids daycare, it's really not a problem. You're talking 30:1 kids to caregivers, and 8:1 is over the legal limit.
Like, I've hung out in the daycare. I've talked to the caregivers. It's not nearly the way you seem to think. They like it because it's easier than the documentation they would be keeping for their own purposes.
I'm typing this having just gotten back from dropping the kids off with them and hanging out chatting for a bit.If the kid fell and bumped his head, I'm sure they are spending about five minutes logging and tending to them. Probably 20 seconds typing after 3 or 4 minutes putting an ice pack on it, giving them a hug and letting them sit on their lap.
so wait you are saying they do have time to chat, which in a lot of these comments they state they dont have time for this. I think the logging of major things would be fine, but bathroom breaks and nap time hell all the other small things they have to log is dumb, and not really helpful if you are trying to get to the source of an issue (like bathroom incidences or they seem to be overly tired). Also I was never talking 30:1, if you look we showed its 10:1 legally.
Also how long did it take you to write that, were you on a phone or tablet? I know a lot of the people I know type really slow on a table due to how bad the keyboard is (this is not talking about a docked one). So pressing a few buttons then typing something out is like 2 to 5 min. I am just saying in the world where they dont have the time to talk to you (which I asked around and isnt the case, and you seem to say the same) they could be spending that time with the kids and then interact with me at the end/start of the day.
-
its like you havent read what I said, You should want to talk to these people, dont treat them as a resource, they are caring for your children. This is the same with their teachers, you should want to talk to them, even more than the scheduled times.
You seem to think squeezing as much productivity out of them is the goal, but if we treated them like humans you might do better for them and in the long run your children.
wrote last edited by [email protected]You seem to think squeezing as much productivity out of them is the goal, but if we treated them like humans you might do better for them and in the long run your children.
I'm the one arguing that they don't deserve to be your slave... I'm sorry you feel entitled to so much of their time. They're overworked, understaffed, and have to deal with so many entitled parents.
Logging in the moment saves them literal hours. It also doesn't mean you can't talk to them, it just means you can focus on the important parts instead of wasting time that could be spent focusing on the children.
This one is mostly unrelated, but seems important: Do you think everyone's memory is infallible, or that daycare workers are superheroes?
-
so wait you are saying they do have time to chat, which in a lot of these comments they state they dont have time for this. I think the logging of major things would be fine, but bathroom breaks and nap time hell all the other small things they have to log is dumb, and not really helpful if you are trying to get to the source of an issue (like bathroom incidences or they seem to be overly tired). Also I was never talking 30:1, if you look we showed its 10:1 legally.
Also how long did it take you to write that, were you on a phone or tablet? I know a lot of the people I know type really slow on a table due to how bad the keyboard is (this is not talking about a docked one). So pressing a few buttons then typing something out is like 2 to 5 min. I am just saying in the world where they dont have the time to talk to you (which I asked around and isnt the case, and you seem to say the same) they could be spending that time with the kids and then interact with me at the end/start of the day.
And over how many children? So 30 kids 5 seconds each
You literally said 30 kids.
https://childcare.gov/consumer-education/regulated-child-care/supervision-ratios-and-group-sizes
Staff:Child Ratio Group Size
Infants: Younger than 12 months old 1 adult should care for no more than 3 infants No more than 6 infants in a group or class
Toddlers: 13ā35 months old 1 adult should care for no more than 4 toddlers No more than 8 toddlers in a group or classFor kids wearing diapers 8:1 is really pushing it and probably illegal anywhere in the US.
You talk about being required to log stuff when it's just something you keep track of when watching kids that age. They have routines, and they can't tell you their needs. You keep track of that stuff because you know their routine and it tells you where they are in it. 1:1 you can just remember. The second you add another adult you need to share data.
Many jurisdictions require logging (page 16) because it's best practice.
Using a computer just makes it easier and makes it so the checkout conversation can be entirely the qualitative report and conversation you seem to want it to be.You're seemingly just declaring something to be an onerous burden and pointless when it's simply not.
-
What country are you in where the parental notification laws are "I dunno, if you feel like it I guess"?
Belgium. There's no laws whatsoever that mandate notifications. They'll just tell you if something important happens
Well that seems quite odd. Most developed countries have standards for childcare settings, including defining minimums for activity and incident logging.
Finding regulations was difficult, but it seems that Belgium just has lower quality childcare than even the US, according to the UN. https://www.unicef.org/innocenti/reports/where-do-rich-countries-stand-childcareColor me surprised. I kind of assumed if we had standards that anyone else would have similar or better standards.
-
Well that seems quite odd. Most developed countries have standards for childcare settings, including defining minimums for activity and incident logging.
Finding regulations was difficult, but it seems that Belgium just has lower quality childcare than even the US, according to the UN. https://www.unicef.org/innocenti/reports/where-do-rich-countries-stand-childcareColor me surprised. I kind of assumed if we had standards that anyone else would have similar or better standards.
wrote last edited by [email protected]The only thing such laws do is make the care taker more of a replaceable robot, imo. In either case, you want someone that cares, and doesn't see a kid as a long to do list within an app.
No amount of laws can force someone to care. The reverse is often true, in my opinion. "Teach for the test" style.
-
The only thing such laws do is make the care taker more of a replaceable robot, imo. In either case, you want someone that cares, and doesn't see a kid as a long to do list within an app.
No amount of laws can force someone to care. The reverse is often true, in my opinion. "Teach for the test" style.
Yeah, standards for care isn't "teaching for the test". You don't overfocus on "don't change diapers in the food prep area" or "tell the parents if you use the first aid kit" and somehow end up neglecting care.
I take my kids to a legal daycare. That means I know people who work there and are nearby have been certified in pediatric CPR and first aid within the past year. That they do fire drills. That they have a policy for when sick kids need to go home and when they can come back.It's not about a law forcing people to care, it's about establishing a baseline. If a caregiver I haven't met swaps in for one I know I don't have to learn their standards on the spot.
It's odd to be opposed to standards.
-
Yeah, standards for care isn't "teaching for the test". You don't overfocus on "don't change diapers in the food prep area" or "tell the parents if you use the first aid kit" and somehow end up neglecting care.
I take my kids to a legal daycare. That means I know people who work there and are nearby have been certified in pediatric CPR and first aid within the past year. That they do fire drills. That they have a policy for when sick kids need to go home and when they can come back.It's not about a law forcing people to care, it's about establishing a baseline. If a caregiver I haven't met swaps in for one I know I don't have to learn their standards on the spot.
It's odd to be opposed to standards.
wrote last edited by [email protected]It's odd to be opposed to standards.
The baseline more than often becomes the goal, that's my issue. Oh so many people just go through the motions devoid of thinking and intent
Now they also can go: I followed the flowchart what more do you wantGood news is it sounds like we both got exactly what we want!
-
It's odd to be opposed to standards.
The baseline more than often becomes the goal, that's my issue. Oh so many people just go through the motions devoid of thinking and intent
Now they also can go: I followed the flowchart what more do you wantGood news is it sounds like we both got exactly what we want!
I think the difference might be that you're thinking of standards that say "if you do A and B and C then you're a good ___". Happens with prescriptive education standards that are tied tightly with budget.
I'm thinking of standards like "failure to A or B or C, or doing X or Y or Z makes you an unacceptable ___". It's what you see in restaurants and hospital hygiene standards. Any restaurant "cleaning to the test" and only going down the food safety list and correcting any issue is both the type that would just be filthy without those standards, and also would end up serving safe food. Same for doctors and hand washing. We would rather all doctors be deeply committed to hygiene, but we have real world data that mandating hygiene minimums and doing things to enforce them has measurable increases in patient well-being. Same for building safety standards and such.people just go through the motions devoid of thinking and intent
Now they also can go: I followed the flowchart what more do you wantIn a system with the standard, those people are providing better care than they would be without them.
-
I think the difference might be that you're thinking of standards that say "if you do A and B and C then you're a good ___". Happens with prescriptive education standards that are tied tightly with budget.
I'm thinking of standards like "failure to A or B or C, or doing X or Y or Z makes you an unacceptable ___". It's what you see in restaurants and hospital hygiene standards. Any restaurant "cleaning to the test" and only going down the food safety list and correcting any issue is both the type that would just be filthy without those standards, and also would end up serving safe food. Same for doctors and hand washing. We would rather all doctors be deeply committed to hygiene, but we have real world data that mandating hygiene minimums and doing things to enforce them has measurable increases in patient well-being. Same for building safety standards and such.people just go through the motions devoid of thinking and intent
Now they also can go: I followed the flowchart what more do you wantIn a system with the standard, those people are providing better care than they would be without them.
I've seen goodhart's law in effect too often. In practice the latter, "failure to A or B or C, .." always turns into the first, "just do A, B and C". Devoid of thinking why A, B and C need to happen. The same thinking that would lead people to also do E and F, and realize that sometimes A is not necessary.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one
