Immigrants in most countries are required to pledge allegiance to their adopted country to become exempt from deportation (aka: Attaining Citizenship Status); What do you think of this practice?
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Citizenship is different than residency. A citizen has roles and responsibilities beyond that of a resident. I don't think it is that unreasonable to ask a naturalized citizen to be loyal to their new country.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Then should it no longer be automatic for people who were just born there, or to citizen parents, as the case may be?
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
wrote last edited by [email protected]It's silly. The oath means nothing (particularly if it's to a British socialite like it is here) which is wrong for an oath.
Allegiance to countries should be earned by that country anyway, not demanded or unconditional.
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It's silly. The oath means nothing (particularly if it's to a British socialite like it is here) which is wrong for an oath.
Allegiance to countries should be earned by that country anyway, not demanded or unconditional.
wrote last edited by [email protected]unconditional
I mean it is conditional.
I see it as a "social contract". The state/society gives me a status and certain protections, in exchange for me promising not to be a terrorist, spy, etc... that's essentially what I see it as.
If the state/society start treating me like some foreigner, then I'd consider them violating their "end of the bargain", aka: it's them violating the social contract and I'd act accordingly.
If they pull the Japanese-American "Internment Camp" bullshit on me, don't expect me to have any "allegiance" lmao
As an example: PRC tried to "terminate" me for being the second-born, because they wanted to fullfill their fantasy of a "birth control" and forced sterilization policy, and also they tried to deny giving the legal papers proving I exist until their BS "fines" got paid (meaning, essentially: I didn't legally "exist" for the first few years of my life), not to mention, the various fucked up things regarding censorship, cant even playing a fucking online game, so yea I have zero "allegiance" with the PRC. In fact, I dispise PRC.
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I think the idea of national states is utterly silly and should be abolished. Just look at the maps and how many straight lines they have, there is nothing natural or normal about those artificial lines of most countries.
On top of it nationalists use national states, which contain highly diverse groups of people, to make them to go to war against their neighbors by telling them lies about how they all are some special group.
As an example, is there anything a Bavarian has more in common with a person from Schleswig-Holstein compared to his neighbor from Austria? It's not culture, nor language, not even blood. It's only artificial things like the football national team, laws, taxes, etc.
You'd still need some sort of local government that reflects local values. The same set of laws applied to the whole world would cause instant war
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Then should it no longer be automatic for people who were just born there, or to citizen parents, as the case may be?
In the US, children are made to participate in the pledge of allegiance daily at school. To answer your question more broadly, in many cases, if a citizen commits certain crimes against a country, then it is considered treason. Maybe it's considered that a citizen born in the country understands that, but someone naturalising must acknowledge it.
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In the US, children are made to participate in the pledge of allegiance daily at school. To answer your question more broadly, in many cases, if a citizen commits certain crimes against a country, then it is considered treason. Maybe it's considered that a citizen born in the country understands that, but someone naturalising must acknowledge it.
Tbf, the school pledges are voluntary under the first amendment. The naturalization oath is manadatory, you aren't officially a citizen until you take the oath.
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Tbf, the school pledges are voluntary under the first amendment. The naturalization oath is manadatory, you aren't officially a citizen until you take the oath.
Voluntary does not mean there isn't a heavy amount of pressure to conform, from what I've heard and read.
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
I think about a majestic golden eagle who is in an erotic fight to the death with a mermaid.
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
You said most countries but then only mention the USA. May I surmise you're from the USA aka the world?
So I got curious, but it's also 7am and I need to sleep. I looked it up for my own country: we don't exactly have this
The Netherlands basically requires you to acknowledge that its laws apply to you (they do when you set foot here anyway) and that you'll fulfill the duties that come with citizenship.
When opening the included FAQ item "what duties?" it says two things: you abide by the laws (duh) and that you should consider that you're part of this society and that "you'll do what is needed to really be part of this society." Handwavey and not about choosing a side in a war or something, just focused on integration and community. Seems okay to me and distinct from blind allegiance. There's some more details but the FAQs all circle back to respecting the other citizens (no discrimination) and the like -
Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
Do most countries require a pledge? Mine didn't when I got my citizenship.
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That's like saying it's not a big ask to become a part of some random family.
What OP meant is that it's not a big ask to be loyal to the country you're becoming citizen of.
Following your analogy, it wouldn't be a big ask for a family adopting you that you swear to protect the interests of said family (health, wealth, well-being, affection and safety).
If the smoke alarm starts beeping and you run away from the family house without even looking back and making any attempts to make sure that everyone got out safely, then you wouldn't be a good family member.
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unconditional
I mean it is conditional.
I see it as a "social contract". The state/society gives me a status and certain protections, in exchange for me promising not to be a terrorist, spy, etc... that's essentially what I see it as.
If the state/society start treating me like some foreigner, then I'd consider them violating their "end of the bargain", aka: it's them violating the social contract and I'd act accordingly.
If they pull the Japanese-American "Internment Camp" bullshit on me, don't expect me to have any "allegiance" lmao
As an example: PRC tried to "terminate" me for being the second-born, because they wanted to fullfill their fantasy of a "birth control" and forced sterilization policy, and also they tried to deny giving the legal papers proving I exist until their BS "fines" got paid (meaning, essentially: I didn't legally "exist" for the first few years of my life), not to mention, the various fucked up things regarding censorship, cant even playing a fucking online game, so yea I have zero "allegiance" with the PRC. In fact, I dispise PRC.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Yeah, in that situation it's more demanded than unconditional. You're right, there's a social contract, but pledges of fealty are passe in most relationships. Like, if it was an employer or something, it's generally accepted that they'll earn your loyalty by compensating you for your work and not abusing you, and maybe through the nature of their vision. There is a whole other layer of security clearance when something is very sensitive.
Unconditional patriotism is what natural-born Americans are expected to have. Loving your country and all the boo-rah, 4th of July shit is a form of virtue in and of itself. That even extends to blindly holding beliefs about things which should really be measured objectively. Canada has it's problems, but we've managed to avoid that one a bit more (so pardon the punching outwards).
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In the US, children are made to participate in the pledge of allegiance daily at school. To answer your question more broadly, in many cases, if a citizen commits certain crimes against a country, then it is considered treason. Maybe it's considered that a citizen born in the country understands that, but someone naturalising must acknowledge it.
Espionage also carries heavy sentences, and everyone knows you can be prosecuted for plotting a coup or whatever.
In the US, children are made to participate in the pledge of allegiance daily at school.
By OP's logic, then, that's good, and if they refuse they should become a non-citizen.
A spoken oath is a pretty ineffective enforcement mechanism, for what it's worth.
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Basically: In some countries, the pledge is with the constitution or the people, but in others (like constitutional monarchies), its a pledge to the (constitutional) monarch and their successors.
What is your opinion on this loyalty pledge? Do you believe it's a reasonable request?
(For context: My mother and older brother had to do the pledge to gain [US] citizenship so the idea of deportation isn't looming over our heads. I didn't have do it because I was under 18 and my mother's citizenship status automatically carried over to me according to the law.)
Every nation has a ruling hierarchy, and it's important for those at the bottom to swear fealty to those at the top.
