The vibecoders are becoming sentient
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I have never used an AI to code and don't care about being able to do it to the point that I have disabled the buttons that Microsoft crammed into VS Code.
That said, I do think a better use of AI might be to prepare PRs in logical and reasonable sizes for submission that have coherent contextualization and scope. That way when some dingbat vibe codes their way into a circle jerk that simultaneously crashes from dual memory access and doxxes the entire user base, finding issues is easier to spread out and easier to educate them on why vibe coding is boneheaded.
I developed for the VFX industry and I see the whole vibe coding thing as akin to storyboards or previs. Those are fast and (often) sloppy representations of the final production which can be used to quickly communicate a concept without massive investment. I see the similarities in this, a vibe code job is sloppy, sometimes incomprehensible, but the finished product could give someone who knew what the fuck they are doing a springboard to write it correctly. So do what the film industry does: keep your previs guys in the basement, feed them occasionally, and tell them to go home when the real work starts. (No shade to previs/SB artists, it is a real craft and vital for the film industry as a whole. I am being flippant about you for commedic effect. Love you guys.)
I like your previs analogy, because that’s how I’ve been thinking of it in my head without really knowing how to communicate it. It’s not very good at making a finished project, but it can be useful to demonstrate a direction to go in.
And actually, the one time I’ve felt I was able to use AI successfully was literally using it for previs; I had a specific idea of design I wanted for a logo, but didn’t know how to communicate it. So I created about a hundred AI iterations that eventually got close to what I wanted, handed that to my wife who is an actual artist, told her that was roughly what I was thinking about, and then she took the direction it was going in and made it an actual proper finished design. It saved us probably 15-20 iterations of going back and forth, and kept her from getting progressively more annoyed with me for saying “well… can you make it like that, but more so?”
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imo paying devs to review vibe coded bile would not work either. At best, the dev themselves should do the vibe coding.
Someone who has no clue whatsoever in terms of programming cannot give it the right prompt.
Yeah, this is my nightmare scenario. Code reviews are always the worst part of a programming gig, and they must get exponentially worse when the junior devs can crank out 100s of lines of code per commit with an LLM.
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AI used extremely sparingly is sometimes helpful to an experienced coder. "Multivac, generate a set of unit tests for this function." Okay, some of these are dumb, but it's easier getting started on this mess than just looking at a blank buffer. Helps get the juices flowing a bit. But man, you try to actually do anything with it, and suddenly you're lost chasing a will-o'-wisp.
I don't want to dismiss your point overall, but I see that example so often and it irks me so much.
Unit tests are your specification. So, 1) ideally you should write the specification before you implement the functionality. But also, 2) this is the one part where you really should be putting in your critical thinking to work out what the code needs to be doing.
An AI chatbot or autocomplete can aid you in putting down some of the boilerplate to have the specification automatically checked against the implementation. Or you could try to formulate the specification in plaintext and have an AI translate it into code. But an AI without knowledge of the context nor critical thinking cannot write the specification for you.
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There are a bunch of tools that are basically a text editor hooked up to an LLM. So you use natural language to prompt the software to write code for you.
wrote last edited by [email protected]And to add to this, you don't actually do any coding yourself. Just using something to help with boilerplate code isn't usually counted.
Although, I'm wondering from this Reddit r/vibecoding thread if that's a Lemmy-specific definition. Most of the people in it seem to be using LLMs in a sane way and are telling OP this isn't.
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Nah I'm on that guy's side. His experience lines up with my own, namely that vibe coding is not useful for people who don't know how to program, but it can be useful for people who do know how to program, and simply aren't familiar with the specific syntax used in a language they're not an expert in.
In that case, the queries to the AI model aren't, "write me a program that can do X", it's more like "write me a function in this language that can take A, B, and C as inputs, do operation Y with them, and return Z", or "what's the best way to find all of the unique elements in an array and sort it alphabetically in this language". Then the programmer can take those pieces and build up a proper application with them. The AI isn't actually writing the program for you, it's more like a customized Stack Overflow generator, without having to wade through a decade of people arguing back and forth in the comments about inane bullshit.
Does it save a ton of time? No, but it's still helpful, and can get you up and running in a new language much faster than the alternative.
I'm currently doing this with an angular project that's a bit of a clusterfuck. So many layers.
I'm still having to break it down into much, much smaller chunks and it's not able to do much, but it is helpful. Most useful thing was that I started with writing a pure SQL query with several joins and told it "turn this into linq using existing entities".
I think they'll completely replace ORMs.
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I don't want to dismiss your point overall, but I see that example so often and it irks me so much.
Unit tests are your specification. So, 1) ideally you should write the specification before you implement the functionality. But also, 2) this is the one part where you really should be putting in your critical thinking to work out what the code needs to be doing.
An AI chatbot or autocomplete can aid you in putting down some of the boilerplate to have the specification automatically checked against the implementation. Or you could try to formulate the specification in plaintext and have an AI translate it into code. But an AI without knowledge of the context nor critical thinking cannot write the specification for you.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Also after your 4th proper project you won't be as confused about "how to get started" anymore anyway.
You have a language of choice, a gui framework, and a build system you are comfortable with in mind already just start making folders.
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Consulting opportunity: clean up your vibe-coding projects and get them to production.
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Consulting opportunity: clean up your vibe-coding projects and get them to production.
That comes up in that sub occasionally and people offer it as a service. It's 2 different universes in there - people who are like giving a child a Harry Potter toy wand that think they're magic, and then a stage magician with 20 years of experience doing up close slight-of-hand magic that takes work to learn, telling the kid "you're not doing what you think you're doing here" and then the kid starts to cry and their friends come over and try to berate the stage magician and shout that he's wrong because Hagrid said Harry's a wizard and if you have the plastic wand that goes "bbbring!" you're Harry Potter.
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Also after your 4th proper project you won't be as confused about "how to get started" anymore anyway.
You have a language of choice, a gui framework, and a build system you are comfortable with in mind already just start making folders.
Feels like there are some fine people here only working on new projects.
Getting started could be, breaking down a 20 year old program, written in some wierd manner because the original developer use to do functional programming but was told to use java and oop. No comments, no tests, no normal patterns, no documentation. -
AI used extremely sparingly is sometimes helpful to an experienced coder. "Multivac, generate a set of unit tests for this function." Okay, some of these are dumb, but it's easier getting started on this mess than just looking at a blank buffer. Helps get the juices flowing a bit. But man, you try to actually do anything with it, and suddenly you're lost chasing a will-o'-wisp.
Oh man, I love ChatGPT for one thing in particular: "Hey chatbot, is there some library or standard library function for that very specific, yet still kinda generic thing I'm trying to do, so that I don't have to write it myself?"
It does frequently give a helpful answer. That is, it doesn't give me working code, but a helpful pointer to some manual where I can find good instructions for how to use the thing to solve my problem.
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Feels like there are some fine people here only working on new projects.
Getting started could be, breaking down a 20 year old program, written in some wierd manner because the original developer use to do functional programming but was told to use java and oop. No comments, no tests, no normal patterns, no documentation.wrote last edited by [email protected]The argument was "AI helps when starting up new projects by making unit tests etc."
Also for not 20, but even building 10 year old libraries using AI is unhelpful. It just keeps hallucinating non-existent packages and functions.
At this point just drive yourself crazy while promising to become goose farmer and commenting every single line in your own words like god intended for programmers to do.
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Vibe coding is useful for super basic bash scripting and that's about it. Even that it will mess up but usually in a suler easily fixed way
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A buddy of mine is into vibe coding, but he actually does know how to code as well. He will reiterate through the code with the llm until he thinks it will work. I can believe it saves time, but you still have to know what you are doing.
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Nah I'm on that guy's side. His experience lines up with my own, namely that vibe coding is not useful for people who don't know how to program, but it can be useful for people who do know how to program, and simply aren't familiar with the specific syntax used in a language they're not an expert in.
In that case, the queries to the AI model aren't, "write me a program that can do X", it's more like "write me a function in this language that can take A, B, and C as inputs, do operation Y with them, and return Z", or "what's the best way to find all of the unique elements in an array and sort it alphabetically in this language". Then the programmer can take those pieces and build up a proper application with them. The AI isn't actually writing the program for you, it's more like a customized Stack Overflow generator, without having to wade through a decade of people arguing back and forth in the comments about inane bullshit.
Does it save a ton of time? No, but it's still helpful, and can get you up and running in a new language much faster than the alternative.
Sure, it can be useful for people who do know how to program, though I find it usually takes more effort to get it to create what I want and make sure it works than it takes to just do it myself.
This guy explicitly says he doesn't know how to program though. He says he took an HTML (not a programming language, a markdown language) class a decade ago. He probably doesn't remember shit from it, not that it'd be helpful anyway because writing HTML has nothing to do with writing a program to perform a task.
Does it save a ton of time? No, but it's still helpful, and can get you up and running in a new language much faster than the alternative.
You obviously aren't a programmer. You either know how to program or you don't. The language is just syntax, which is trivial to learn. It doesn't help you get running in a new language because you still need to learn the syntax to make sure it's writing something reasonable. That time has to be spent no matter what.
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Back in my day, we called that pseudocode. It's code-like, but not in any actual programming language that you could compile from.
It's more of a set of ideas of how to accomplish something, than it is actually coding.
The fun part is, that pseudo code can be adapted to any actual programming language.
Idk why everyone is crazy about vibes all of a sudden.... But sure.
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Oh man, I love ChatGPT for one thing in particular: "Hey chatbot, is there some library or standard library function for that very specific, yet still kinda generic thing I'm trying to do, so that I don't have to write it myself?"
It does frequently give a helpful answer. That is, it doesn't give me working code, but a helpful pointer to some manual where I can find good instructions for how to use the thing to solve my problem.
I will usually google that kind of thing first (to save the rainforests)... Often I can find something that way, otherwise I might try an LLM
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Vibe coding is useful for super basic bash scripting and that's about it. Even that it will mess up but usually in a suler easily fixed way
I've also found it useful for simple Python scripts when I need to analyze data. I don't use pandas/scipy/numpy/matplotlib enough to remember the syntax and library functions. With vibe coding it, I can have a script in minutes for reading a csv with weird timestamps, scale some of the channels, filter out noise or detrending, perform a Fourier transform, and do a curve fit towards a model.
But then obviously I know every intermediate step I want to do.
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I better not watch this, it would make me angry. I hate people who could have hired someone like me for the same or even less money and get a working product. But no, they always throw money at fraudsters. Because wasting resources is their very nature.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I watched a bit out of curiosity and even vibe-coding aside, he is annoying as fuck. Couldn't stand him 20 seconds.
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A buddy of mine is into vibe coding, but he actually does know how to code as well. He will reiterate through the code with the llm until he thinks it will work. I can believe it saves time, but you still have to know what you are doing.
Agree, my spouse and I do the same. You need to know how to code and understand the basic principles otherwise it's a bit like the Chinese room thing where you may or may not operate currently not have no actual clue of what you're doing. You need to be about to see when llms follow their hobby and blow three lines of code unnecessarily out of proportion by adding 60 lines of unneeded shit that opens the door to more bugs.
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Can someone tell me what vibe coding is?
Can someone tell me what vibe coding is?
a term coined 6 months ago for writing software using an LLM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibe_coding
