I may swear like a pirate, but I'm a fucking PRINCIPLED pirate
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Describing a person as an "illegal" immigrant is dehumanizing, given that only acts can be legal or illegal, not people.
"Undocumented" immigrant is the generally accepted term.
It doesn't really matter which you feel is the more accurate or better term. For all intents and purposes they have the same meaning, and one is clearly more dignified than the other.
Describing a person as an "illegal" immigrant is dehumanizing
How so?
given that only acts can be legal or illegal, not people
Yes, that's why it's "illegal immigrant" not "illegal person".
"Undocumented" immigrant is the generally accepted term.
Among some people, among others it's "illegal immigrant". Undocumented is wrong, the people have documentation, they just don't have the legal right to reside where they do.
one is clearly more dignified than the other.
No, they're both equally dignified, you've just been snarfing down propaganda.
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I agree with calling people what they want to be called, but most people don’t spend their days on lemmy and aren’t up to date with what people like being called. People should get used to be called the wrong thing, or wrong pronouns. If you specifically tell me you want to be want to be called a certain thing, I have no issues with that, but until you tell me that, you shouldn’t be offended that I call you what is effectively a description.
I personally have never heard anyone IRL say the words undocumented migrant, or even outside lemmy tbh, while illegal immigrant is obviously common. So by default, if I need to refer to these people, this is the term I’d have used, not intended as an insult.
Just because you don't intend to insult someone doesn't mean you're not ignorant.
It doesn't take really any empathy at all to recognise that someone might prefer to be called an undocumented immigrant rather than an illegal one.
I think people really are used to being called the wrong thing, or the wrong pronouns. In reality, if you accidentally misgender someone they often won't bother to correct you if you're merely a passing acquaintance, but if you're more than that they might politely correct you in a non-confrontational way.
People being upset about someone making a genuine mistake and calling them the wrong thing is not the norm, and if someone did that it would be pretty weird.
The term "illegal immigrant" may be a description, but I'm sure you can recognise that it's not a very dignified one. You probably don't refer to people you like as "that fat guy" or "that woman with the huge ass", despite those phrases being descriptive.
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Just because you don't intend to insult someone doesn't mean you're not ignorant.
It doesn't take really any empathy at all to recognise that someone might prefer to be called an undocumented immigrant rather than an illegal one.
I think people really are used to being called the wrong thing, or the wrong pronouns. In reality, if you accidentally misgender someone they often won't bother to correct you if you're merely a passing acquaintance, but if you're more than that they might politely correct you in a non-confrontational way.
People being upset about someone making a genuine mistake and calling them the wrong thing is not the norm, and if someone did that it would be pretty weird.
The term "illegal immigrant" may be a description, but I'm sure you can recognise that it's not a very dignified one. You probably don't refer to people you like as "that fat guy" or "that woman with the huge ass", despite those phrases being descriptive.
That’s the problem. The interaction you describe is what happens IRL. On lemmy, or most of the “left” internet, it’s the total opposite, with people getting offended at the slightest misstep. Somehow being ignorant in some areas makes you evil or a jerk. People all have a limited amount of time to spend, and not everyone choses to spend that time learning all the politically correct ways to call people.
I also wouldn’t refer to someone as “an illegal immigrant” the same way I wouldn’t refer to them as “that fat man” because you just don’t refer to people that way. But I don’t have any issues talking about fat people, or illegal immigrants, in general. Or if it’s specific, it’ll probably be something like “John got deported last week because he was an illegal immigrant”. Not “get out of here you illegal immigrant”. Not that it sounds much worse than “get out of here you undocumented migrant.”
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I cant believe i have to explain this but...
There's lots of ways you can refer to people. Some are respectful, some are not.
This might shock you but some parents teach their kids to be respectful of others. Avoiding labelling people in ways they might not appreciate is a good start.
It may be a "fact" that someone is an "illegal immigrant" but I'm sure you can see that term is intended to portray the person in a specific way.
Its also a fact that such a person is an undocumented migrant trying to feed their family, or maybe even an asylum seekers fleeing persecution.
So yes, representing facts in a racist way is racist. Well done.
I will preface this by saying I do not agree with how this administration is enforcing immigration law, and triple disagree with how they are removing legal status from people to get easy deportations. It is being done both stupidly and cruelly. ICE should be uniformed and identifiable, and all law enforcement should be held to the highest standards.
That said, an asylum seeker is just that, an asylum seeker and not an illegal immigrant. Lumping them in with illegal immigrants to help whitewash illegal immigration is, in my opinion, as much a contributor to the problem as those claiming asylum seekers are lying. Both sides of this argument keep shoving the asylum seekers into the illegal immigrant bucket to serve their narratives and it pisses me off.
Obviously every person who illegally immigrates is doing so trying to feed themselves and/or their family better than they can in their own country, basically no one wakes up and decides to throw away their entire lives and legal status to go to another country. That does not mean laws don't apply to them. No one on earth has a right to go to another country except through the established legal means of that country, which is why statelessness is such a terrible crime against the people who are rendered such.
Lumping in illegal immigration with things like race and slurs and calling it racist waters down racist. Basic human dignity and respect for things that are intrinsic qualities like race, gender, sexuality, etc is not the same thing as someone's legal status. This doesn't stop the racists, doesn't help anyone, and weakens actual narrative.
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A couple of nights ago I was in the car with my 8 year old daughter and Killing In The Name Of by Rage Against the Machine came on... my instinct was to skip to the next song, but then I thought "No, this is a song she needs to hear" because if she has questions she knows that she can ask.
A couple of songs later, it was Closer by NIN... I immediately skipped to the next song.
My kid doesn't speak English, he is 5 (and Dutch), one day in the car I was playing "Pennywise - Fuck authority". He said that the man said fuck. Even if you're 5 and don't speak English you understand that the word fuck is a swearword.
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Fuck that, you're not my real dad! Plus, I learned it from you, fartfucker.
The mentor has become the mentos. I am proud of you son/daughter/some random kid I found. Go forth and make some swearwolves of your own.
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I cant believe i have to explain this but...
There's lots of ways you can refer to people. Some are respectful, some are not.
This might shock you but some parents teach their kids to be respectful of others. Avoiding labelling people in ways they might not appreciate is a good start.
It may be a "fact" that someone is an "illegal immigrant" but I'm sure you can see that term is intended to portray the person in a specific way.
Its also a fact that such a person is an undocumented migrant trying to feed their family, or maybe even an asylum seekers fleeing persecution.
So yes, representing facts in a racist way is racist. Well done.
How tf is it racist to say someone is an illegal immigrant if they're an immigrant who came in illegally? At the face of it those words can be used totally neutrally
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They're the no-no word because someone used them to hurt someone else.
I don't know what "removed" means, I assume it's black in spanish or something, it doesn't make sense on it's own.
It's just a word that people used to hurt other people, so we can't use them.
Literally, "we can't have nice things" applied to word, although, whatever that word means, I guess we have other words that mean black so, ok, whatever, we still have plenty of other 6 letter words so "meh".Would be nice if people stopped being such shitheads and using group dominance to subjugate other groups.
I think instead of attacking words, we should attack the mechanic behind them ?
If the slur comes out it's already too late, the dominance play has already infected them.It has to be defused before they even say it. Find why people are being so shit, it's not just a reaction, it's not the word itself making them do it.
There a reason why they become nasty slur-spewing goblins.
Sure, and it's not like there arent any efforts towards that.
But since hate words do exist we don't use them in order to not empower further the mechanics/shitheads that do use/promote them.
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Nice sentiment, but where shitpost?
You came for the circle jerks but til this stable is full you only get horseshoe handies.
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Yarhaarrharrr ye facist curr
Look me in the eyes and tell me you don't judge people who wear red hats.
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Sure, and it's not like there arent any efforts towards that.
But since hate words do exist we don't use them in order to not empower further the mechanics/shitheads that do use/promote them.
Why isn't this solved already ?
Why does it persist ?
Do the people who proclaim to be doing something about it gain something for it persisting so it never get actually solved ?
I mean, even as I figure out what they're for and how they're being used, surely this has been going on for centuries if not millennia.
So why is that shit still even around ?
You'd think we'd have it figured out by now, dealt with and ready when the next duckface tries that crap.
But I guess not... -
Nice try Tik Tok
Tiktok??
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What is the real difference between 'fuck" and 'frak'? Or 'god damn' and 'gosh darn'. They mean the exact same thing but one is bad and one is fine? That's just dumb.
We don't censor our kids except by situation. They can swear at home but not at school, for example. But that's mostly because of how general society perceives swear words and not the words themselves.
Words are given power through meaning. We teach our kids about meaning. And words to hurt others are not allowed. Saying fuck is fine but calling someone a fucker is not. But we don't allow them to call someone stupid, either.
Racist/dehumanizing words have power through meaning, not really the words themselves. The words just end up changing because those racists still want to convey what they mean. Teach people to be better about the meaning of what they say, not the specific words they use.
The best way to teach not only kids but pretty much anyone is through example. I don't forbid my kids from swearing but I don't swear in front of them.
I teach them there is a time and place for every word.
But saying "I swear in front of my kids but I'm not a racist" is just lazy. It's basically saying "I'm just ok at what at I do because I'm kinda selfish"
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That's dumb as shit.
It isn't and you know it. I doubt very much they you go out of your way to swear in front of kids... Do you?
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Get fucked.
Lol. Ya... Tracks.
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What a fucking dweeb posting a shittier post on a shitpost golf clap
Are you hearing yourself.
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The best way to teach not only kids but pretty much anyone is through example. I don't forbid my kids from swearing but I don't swear in front of them.
I teach them there is a time and place for every word.
But saying "I swear in front of my kids but I'm not a racist" is just lazy. It's basically saying "I'm just ok at what at I do because I'm kinda selfish"
So it's ok for your kids to use the words but you just don't swear in front of them? Isn't that just being a passive parent?
We don't judge other parents for the choices they make, and in fact we teach our kids to not swear in front of other kids. But that's no different then speech used with friends and speech used in a professional setting. Everyone adjusts their speech by setting.
We do teach not just by example but by also making sure they understand the meaning they are trying to convey. For ALL words. The difference between the meaning of racist words and non-disparaging swear words is an ocean. Swear words are really just regular words while racist words are meant to hurt someone. We don't allow any words that are meant to hurt, no matter what that word actually is.
To me using frak, heck, gosh, darn, etc is the exact same as the equivalent swear words.
Allowing swears also takes away their taboo nature. My wife's nephew was brought up the same way and was the only one in his friend group to NOT get in trouble for swearing at school. He knew the time and place.
To me, teaching to base language on the meaning and not word itself is the opposite of lazy.
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He fits every single definition of the Antichrist with little reaching.
Down to the head wound and the mark of the best upon their forehead.
Asking if people could spot the antichrist has always seemed paradoxical to me. Isn't the antichrist's defining thing that he will deceive people into following him? Lost cause imo
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It isn't and you know it. I doubt very much they you go out of your way to swear in front of kids... Do you?
I don't go out of my wayto swear, or to not swear... I don't talk about sexual stuff, but swearing is not something I would hide.
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Look me in the eyes and tell me you don't judge people who wear red hats.
That's different: judging people for their actions, not who they are.
