Democratic freedoms at risk as Germany’s new government prioritises support for Israel.
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Do you believe that what Israel is doing in Palastine could be considered a genocide by the ICC aside from your point on the holocaust? Just trying to figure out where you stand in this.
Could be a genocide. Isn't yet classified as such, might never be.
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if anything the Holocaust and its worldwide condemnation gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere
See? And that's trivialising it. There is not a single case of a genocide as organized, precisely planned and carried out against so many victims. The holocaust is single event in history of mankind. If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it. Every comparsion of a massacre and the holocaust is trivialising the holocaust more and more. One could say (and I do): If the holocaust and other massacres have been compared often enough, holocaust will be just another massacre and it won't be noticed if it happens again.
If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it.
It feels though as if we trivialized other massacres because they will never hold up to a standard we consider to be beyond comparison.
You are right that comparing such events, as in "this event is less significant because less people died" trivialises the immense human suffering involved in the Holocaust. But that has to go both ways, and comparing the Holocaust to these modern events also trivialises the impact of these current events. Each of these events, indeed each of these deaths is a singular atrocity, a tragedy beyond belief.
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Being anti-zionist =/= being anti-semitic. You're good.
If only the German government saw it this way. Public discourse is sadly being swallowed by fascist rhetoric when it comes to this and mirrors what actual Nazis had to say and still do say about Israel.
Albert Einstein on the other hand saw the Likud (Netanyahu‘s political party) for what it is: Fascist in nature. But hey, when was Einstein ever right about anything? He‘s probably just an anti-semite too. /s
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When I first emigrated to Germany, I had so high hopes and opinions of this country and people living here. I had seen protests, counter protests, people talking about hard topics, cherishing democracy.
Now, I am disappointed. Looking for a way out. I feel like a criminal because I am against genocide and I support the ICC. I mean a court that it’s main responsibility is to prevent tragedies such as the Holocaust should be supported right?
Things are moving in a direction that makes no sense to me anymore. I feel like an alien
Now that's the good thing bout the EU. You can pack up and go to another one quite easily.
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If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it.
It feels though as if we trivialized other massacres because they will never hold up to a standard we consider to be beyond comparison.
You are right that comparing such events, as in "this event is less significant because less people died" trivialises the immense human suffering involved in the Holocaust. But that has to go both ways, and comparing the Holocaust to these modern events also trivialises the impact of these current events. Each of these events, indeed each of these deaths is a singular atrocity, a tragedy beyond belief.
I think we can agree that it doesn't have to be "a" holocaust to be awful and that comparsion to the holocaust doesn't help.
Though I don't understand how you both argue that "[comparsion] gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere" and "[comparsion] also trivialises the impact of these current events". Or don't you think it "gives a special voice" anymore and changed your opinion since posting that comment?
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Could be a genocide. Isn't yet classified as such, might never be.
No I agree what we call it doesn't change what is happening, but your reply helped me understand your motive for wanting to distinguish what happens in Gaza and what happend in Europe 80 years ago, so thank you for answering.
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No I agree what we call it doesn't change what is happening, but your reply helped me understand your motive for wanting to distinguish what happens in Gaza and what happend in Europe 80 years ago, so thank you for answering.
Wow, a constructive debate about Middle East among leftist. As a German memer, I have to reply with:
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Stop it. Stop comparing the Shoa and the current massacre in Gaza. No massacre is like the holocaust, there are no holocausts. Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
I disagree. The holocaust is documented as the worse genocide in history by several metrics. Any other mass killing should be juxtaposed to it (and others) to see the similarities and differences. If a nation begins to kill people under the same ideology that birthed the holocaust ( or any other genocide) it should be documented, called out and prevented from doing so, so we don't get another holocaust or holodomor or Cambodian genocide or Rwandan genocide... If we hold the holocaust as something unique and separate, we make the mistake that it can not happen again.
Europeans in Australia spent about 150 years trying to wipe outs it's indigenous population. ~84% population decline. Systematic destruction of culture. Policies of displacement, family destruction and to breed them out. This was not the holocaust. But the similarities are there.
We should absolutely be looking at what is happening in Palestine/Israel to see if the same rationale used for the Holocaust is in play. -
I disagree. The holocaust is documented as the worse genocide in history by several metrics. Any other mass killing should be juxtaposed to it (and others) to see the similarities and differences. If a nation begins to kill people under the same ideology that birthed the holocaust ( or any other genocide) it should be documented, called out and prevented from doing so, so we don't get another holocaust or holodomor or Cambodian genocide or Rwandan genocide... If we hold the holocaust as something unique and separate, we make the mistake that it can not happen again.
Europeans in Australia spent about 150 years trying to wipe outs it's indigenous population. ~84% population decline. Systematic destruction of culture. Policies of displacement, family destruction and to breed them out. This was not the holocaust. But the similarities are there.
We should absolutely be looking at what is happening in Palestine/Israel to see if the same rationale used for the Holocaust is in play.juxtaposed
You may juxtapose it for more or less scientific reasons but as I explained in this thread, you don't juxtapose it by comparing the holocaust and Gaza in a political debate.
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Germany... what have they voted for FFS? Why are they so ardently supporting genoci- oh... now I get it.
They're blindly supporting Israel for historical reasons, not because they support genocide.
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Wow, a constructive debate about Middle East among leftist. As a German memer, I have to reply with:
Like anybody would go and read all these comments and get upset by someone writing German lol. Grüße von eurem bodenständigen Nachbarn
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if anything the Holocaust and its worldwide condemnation gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere
See? And that's trivialising it. There is not a single case of a genocide as organized, precisely planned and carried out against so many victims. The holocaust is single event in history of mankind. If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it. Every comparsion of a massacre and the holocaust is trivialising the holocaust more and more. One could say (and I do): If the holocaust and other massacres have been compared often enough, holocaust will be just another massacre and it won't be noticed if it happens again.
The next genocide won't be noticed again because you and others will make the same argument that "it's not the Holocaust" so it doesn't matter.
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Stop it. Stop comparing the Shoa and the current massacre in Gaza. No massacre is like the holocaust, there are no holocausts. Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
And from my German perspective acting like the Holocaust is entirely its own thing and ephasizing that it cannot repeat itself no matter what trivialises it more than any lukewarm comparison could. It's unfortunately a common sentiment but a dangerous one because if it's just a historical fact and completely detached from the present then why should anyone except historians care? Shutting down any comparison to current events does nothing except show everyone what a virtuous, guilt-ridden German you are. Focusing on the aspects of the Holocaust that were not unique and could happen again/are happening again would be more productive.
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The next genocide won't be noticed again because you and others will make the same argument that "it's not the Holocaust" so it doesn't matter.
Of course just because of me, huh? I had a great constructive debate with other people in this thread and I won't discuss anything with you if you start to personally attack me.
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Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
And from my German perspective acting like the Holocaust is entirely its own thing and ephasizing that it cannot repeat itself no matter what trivialises it more than any lukewarm comparison could. It's unfortunately a common sentiment but a dangerous one because if it's just a historical fact and completely detached from the present then why should anyone except historians care? Shutting down any comparison to current events does nothing except show everyone what a virtuous, guilt-ridden German you are. Focusing on the aspects of the Holocaust that were not unique and could happen again/are happening again would be more productive.
I never said an organized genocide with more than six million victims can't happen again. But it didn't so far and won't happen in the current Gaza-massacre. I explained why you really shouldn't compare the holocaust and Gaza and I don't see the need to explain it again.
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juxtaposed
You may juxtapose it for more or less scientific reasons but as I explained in this thread, you don't juxtapose it by comparing the holocaust and Gaza in a political debate.
Juxtapose means to put things side by side to compare them.
I said document it, call it out and prevent it. That's not for scientific reasons, its very much political. How many more Gazans need to be killed before it's enough like the holocaust for someone to do something to stop it? We compare these things because they look similar. Not to trivialise, but to understand. -
Juxtapose means to put things side by side to compare them.
I said document it, call it out and prevent it. That's not for scientific reasons, its very much political. How many more Gazans need to be killed before it's enough like the holocaust for someone to do something to stop it? We compare these things because they look similar. Not to trivialise, but to understand.As I repeatedly said: It doesn't have to be "a holocaust" nor a genocide to despise it. Please just read what I pointed out in this posts's comment section .
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I never said an organized genocide with more than six million victims can't happen again. But it didn't so far and won't happen in the current Gaza-massacre. I explained why you really shouldn't compare the holocaust and Gaza and I don't see the need to explain it again.
The death toll and methods of extermination are two out of many factors.
I never said an organized genocide with more than six million victims can't happen again.
You want to wait until 6 mill perish before allowing anyone to start drawing comparisons? Wouldn't it make sense to start earlier so people see the gravity of the situation before everyone's dead?
I explained why you really shouldn't compare the holocaust and Gaza
You repeated it a bunch of times but I can't find anything that resembles an actual explanation.
Also I won't discuss anything if you start personally attacking me.
I didn't?
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Of course just because of me, huh? I had a great constructive debate with other people in this thread and I won't discuss anything with you if you start to personally attack me.
Yes, because of sick ghouls like you. There's a genocide happening right now that is far more documented with far more sick intentions on display from Israel and the world where citizens are getting deported for speaking against an injustice and your here whining about the holocaust? Please tell me when in human history has anybody been given such a special privilege with such a "important genocide" ever happen to anyone else? More Soviets died, more Indians died under colonisation but 100x than 6 million, countless Africans died, the whole American continent was almost wiped of it's indigenous people. But here you are complaining about something not being compared to the holocaust because it doesn't fit your special mindset that Jews are the ultimately oppressed people who are god ordained to go to a land they have to connection and commit the worst ethnic cleaning of the modern day. No city has been bombee, starved and devastated like Gaza has in a long long long time. Dresden, Berlin and London got nothing on Gaza.
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They're blindly supporting Israel for historical reasons, not because they support genocide.
"I'm fine with our historical support despite the genocide." It's like "I don't care that Microsoft and Google use my money to undermine my democracy and make software to bomb brown people, at least their products are shiny".
