How do you imagine the world would look today if the Axis powers had won World War II?
-
On top of that, Jews fleeing from Europe would still need a place to live and there is a decent chance that the British would still give up Palestine to form Israel. Maybe a few years later and with a few details changed but overall not much of a difference.
The British handed over Palestine to the UN. There would be no UN if Germany won. The UK might have just handed over Palestine to a local friendly Arab monarchy like Jordan
-
Literally every problem in the Middle East stems from the Zionist colony established by the Western imperialists and the subsequent Cold War between the US and Soviet Union.
Assuming the Sykes Picot division held and pro Western monarchies in Iraq, Egypt and Iran remained in power, what reason would there be for military coups to depose Western monarchs? Without Soviet support and the threat of Israel, what would be propelling Arab nationalism in the 1950s?
The axis powers had very little interest in the Middle East prior to 1939. Hitler wanted Lebensraum in Russia and Italy was interested in Africa. There's no reason to believe they would start wars in the region if the Gulf Monarchies were willing to sell them oil.
In this hypothetical reality, I'd imagine the Middle East would largely be run by monarchies, with deep ties to Germany and Italy.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Literally every problem in the Middle East stems from the Zionist colony established by the imperialists
The Middle East has had problems for thousands of years before the state of Israel got established. Its strategic location between Africa and Asia caused Palestine to be conquered by the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, European crusaders, Arabs again, Ottomans and the British Empire. Three major religions see Jerusalem as a sacred place and have fought wars over it.
Zionism is definitely a major reason for the problems we have in our timeline but assuming there would be no problems at all seems overly simplistic.
Also, the Axis winning the war does not guarantee that Israel won't get established. There would still be hundreds of thousands of Jews who flee from Europe and need somewhere to live. The Axis, being the cause of the problem, wouldn't be interested in solving it and the rest of the world has basically the same options as in our timeline.
The axis powers had no interest in the Middle East prior to 1939 and there’s no reason to believe they would start wars in the region if The Gulf Monarchies were willing to sell them oil.
I could very well see them trying to stay mostly neutral and selling oil to everyone. Profit is more important than ideology, especially if food and water are scarce. But even in real life, that hasn't kept superpowers from finding excuses to attack oil-rich nations.
-
Literally every problem in the Middle East stems from the Zionist colony established by the imperialists
The Middle East has had problems for thousands of years before the state of Israel got established. Its strategic location between Africa and Asia caused Palestine to be conquered by the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, European crusaders, Arabs again, Ottomans and the British Empire. Three major religions see Jerusalem as a sacred place and have fought wars over it.
Zionism is definitely a major reason for the problems we have in our timeline but assuming there would be no problems at all seems overly simplistic.
Also, the Axis winning the war does not guarantee that Israel won't get established. There would still be hundreds of thousands of Jews who flee from Europe and need somewhere to live. The Axis, being the cause of the problem, wouldn't be interested in solving it and the rest of the world has basically the same options as in our timeline.
The axis powers had no interest in the Middle East prior to 1939 and there’s no reason to believe they would start wars in the region if The Gulf Monarchies were willing to sell them oil.
I could very well see them trying to stay mostly neutral and selling oil to everyone. Profit is more important than ideology, especially if food and water are scarce. But even in real life, that hasn't kept superpowers from finding excuses to attack oil-rich nations.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]It's easy to think that the Middle East is chaotic because of what's going on now but the region was at peace for over 500 years under Ottoman Rule.
Western Imperialism and Israel are the reason the region is a mess.
-
Germany was not interested in the Middle East. They wanted Lebensraum in Eastern Europe and Russia. The Gulf Monarchies would have sold them oil in the same way they have been doing to the US as hegemon. There may have been joint ventures like Saudi Aramco but there wouldn't have been CIA coups and regime changes because there would be no Soviet threat.
Germany was actively trying to get some level of control over middle east oil during the war. Their failure to secure reliable and plentiful oil is a big reason they lost. The campaigns in north Africa were largely about control of Egypt and the Suez canal. Part of the invasion to Soviet lands was also opening a route to the middle east.
-
It's easy to think that the Middle East is chaotic because of what's going on now but the region was at peace for over 500 years under Ottoman Rule.
Western Imperialism and Israel are the reason the region is a mess.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]It’s easy to think that the Middle East is chaotic because of what’s going on now but the region was at peace for over 500 years under Ottoman Rule.
No doubt on that point.
But the Ottoman Empire ended a solid 30 years before Israel got established. To prevent the problems the region has now, different choices would have been necessary after WW1, not just WW2. For the purpose of a "What happens if WW2 ends differently" thread, that chance has already passed. The British Mandate has been established and there are already enough Jewish immigrants to have caused the 1936-39 Arab revolt and hundreds of thousands of Jews have already fled Europe. The Axis winning WW2 would probably put even more pressure on the Allies to let Jewish refugees live in Palestine because sending them back to Europe is not just an unattractive option, it's outright impossible.
-
Also, if you don’t want to be part of the discussion, you are free to stay out. other people are participating and enjoying themselves.
In future then I'll try to remember your handy advice and not say anything that might challenge anyone's views or otherwise spoil your enjoyment. Cheers.
You didn't challenge anyone to improve themselves. You tried to impose your ideas on other people. There's a difference.
Cheers.
-
The Middle East would be a lot more peaceful I can tell you that.
That's if the central powers had won WW1, not the sequel.
We'd be living in the Ottoman world, baby. They'd have 70% of the world's oil supply.
-
Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
Nationalism is in full swing by WW2 so any Non-contagious territories would be in constant rebellion. Especially with nazi ideology, I imagine the 2nd half of the 20th century would have considerably more conflict that whay we did get.
-
Great answer, do you see any internal tensions within the Axis that could foreseeably have caused collapse comparable to say Soviet communism's collapse in the real world? How dependant were they on Hitler and Mussolini as individuals?
Not OP, but Germany was likely going to experience a deep recession after the war. However, it is likely that the Nazis would push the cost of the economy shrinking to its enslaved peoples. There would likely be French deindustrialization, a Polish genocide, and building of cruel colonial networks around Germany. The Nazi Party could probably survive Hitler; I suspect the political functioning would be similar to China's Politboro but with a more independent military.
Italy could possibly see the fascist government fall. Mussolini wasn't in control of Italy the same way that Hitler was of Germany. I could see a political crisis occur in Italy where the Italian government falls apart, Germany stabilizes Italian possessions, then Germany keeps the Italian possessions after the new government doesn't adequately swear fealty to Germany.
-
You may be interested in The Man in the High Castle it's both a novel by Phillip K. Dick and TV show on Amazon Prime that explores exactly that premise
Wolfenstein: The New Order also explores this idea. Though I doubt it's as realistic.
-
Thanks for another great answer. I realise now that the comparison with Soviet wasn't very thoughtful of me. I just wanted to imagine something that would have broken up the Nazi German hegemony from the inside.
Another thought is that American products and culture probably are popular partly because they were winners in World War 2.
American culture was a major export during the Great Depression, so it is likely that American culture would continue to be an export unless the USA ceased to exist.
I would just expect Nazi Germany to censor and control some of America's cultural exports. Hitler liked Disney movies, for instance. However, jazz was banned.
-
Germany was not interested in the Middle East. They wanted Lebensraum in Eastern Europe and Russia. The Gulf Monarchies would have sold them oil in the same way they have been doing to the US as hegemon. There may have been joint ventures like Saudi Aramco but there wouldn't have been CIA coups and regime changes because there would be no Soviet threat.
The Gulf Monarchies would have sold them oil in the same way they have been doing to the US as hegemon.
And the USA has significantly intervened in Middle East politics.
It is likely that Nazi Germany would intervene in the Middle East to secure its oil; the various nation-states were still forming and borders were somewhat volatile. Germany would likely intervene to ensure that the oil flows.
Also, after a while, the German state would need another infusion of money and cheap Arab oil would be a perfect resource to bring under control of the Nazi state.
-
Wolfenstein: The New Order also explores this idea. Though I doubt it's as realistic.
To be fair Man in the High Castle has the assassination of FDR succeed because of time travel, right? It's super science either way. The MitHC Hitler studies postwar films and comes to the conclusion that he can't win if FDR guides America out of the Depression.
-
Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]The world loves eugenics, and it is considered "civilised" to kill disabled infants. Sterilisation programs of indigenous people and minorities are carried out across Europe, North America, and Asia.
A rule of power International order, where there are spheres of influence for the big players, Japan, Germany, USA, and maybe Russia and India.A very racist USA that has annexed Canada and maybe more of Mexico, debates about reinstating slavery are a common part of political discourse.
UK is run by incompetent fascists, but the empire has collapsed so tensions build. I'm not sure who the "enemy" would be - maybe a violent revolution that leads to the end of the monarchy? Maybe German "Peacekeepers" on the streets to neutralise the communist subversive threat. Maybe invasion to reannex Ireland as Irish independence is blamed for things falling apart?
British intelligensia fled to Aus-NZ, causing demographic strife as the influx of new comers puts strains on the countries, but also an influx of ideas and they could evolve into a bastion of Liberalism, if not progressive ideas. Probably define selves as not Nazi, and will do a lot of soul searching (or just ignore) treatment of indigenous peoples.
South America probably more stable and more left wing without US meddling and the influx of Nazis. But my South American history is quite weak, so I know I'm not accounting for an awful lot. That, or the fascist US attempts to invade and has a Vietnam experience in Central America.
India as a fascist Hindustan, allied with Japan.
Imperial Japan controls much of Asia either directly or indirectly. The official story is that Japan is the liberator of Asia, having freed Asia from European imperialism, but life is hard for many people, especially ethnic minorities of China and Siberia who have few rights and are often sterilised while their culture is erased. Meanwhile wealth and value is extracted for the metropole.
Asia would certainly have some armed revolution movements, especially in western China and Northern Siberia. A much larger Mongolia, Tibet, unified Korea, Manchuko, and maybe some new nations in Southern China as indepent states, and maybe Turkistan.Indochina would be wild. Not sure how it would end up, but the road would be very different.
Would Middle East be better off? Maybe. [Edit: Sykes Picot was 1st World War, stupid sleep addled brain]
The mess of Sykes-Picot wouldn't happen, and no installation of British/French puppets.Turkey likes USSR's weakening, but now Germany is a worry.
German superstate may well invade to control oil in the 50s/60s though. Which would be very bad news for the Zionists, who are a group of Socialist Jews who run a smattering of self sufficient communities across the Middle East.
By a bizzare twist of fate the Kurds still end up without their own nation and as pawns in games between other powers.Africa would be embroiled in the second scramble for Africa where Germany, Japan, and the USA fight via proxies if not directly for control over the former French and British colonies. Each side supporting partisans and independence movements against the other. Hindustan might join in too, but has to sort its (Edit: accursed autocorrect) home situation out first. Fascist Kingdom of Britain and Australia might do lots of espionage here against each other, seeing themselves as legitimate successor to the UK.
-
Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
We’re about to find out
-
Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]All of these answers are super interesting and well thought out. Many of them line up with I would think, except for one thing. Hitler was no spring chicken during the war. He was 56 years old when he died, under the total crushing stress of leading a nation at war, and being pumped full of a truly fascinating cocktail of drugs by his personal physician. Depending on factors (mostly the war, which you dont specify in your prompt how they won), I don't see him living much past 1945. And I don't see the Reich lasting as a stable state much past that.
I feel like people are underestimating the extent to which Hitler set his subordinates against each other, so that none could accumulate enough power to challenge him. He would kill or sacrifice allies when it became convenient or expedient (remember the night of long knives?) and he avoided appointing a successor. Many speculative fiction works put Albert Speer in this role, but I think its more likely that the Nazi state descends into infighting, and different people fight for the top spot before Hitler is cold.
-
To be fair Man in the High Castle has the assassination of FDR succeed because of time travel, right? It's super science either way. The MitHC Hitler studies postwar films and comes to the conclusion that he can't win if FDR guides America out of the Depression.
Maybe put a spoiler tag around that?
-
A lot of scientific breakthroughs are made like this. Internet was made by the military. Rockets were made because we were trying to outarm each other.
While it would be best if we didn’t kill each other, the optimised outcome is getting scientific progress while killing each other. The silver lining of concentration camps is the human experimentation which gave solid evidence for solid science.
The silver lining of concentration camps is the human experimentation which gave solid evidence for solid science.
There is no such thing as a silver lining to that. What Mengele and his goons did had no scientific backing, produced nothing but tortured and maimed kids, while killing thousands more to prove some crude ideas
-
Not OP, but Germany was likely going to experience a deep recession after the war. However, it is likely that the Nazis would push the cost of the economy shrinking to its enslaved peoples. There would likely be French deindustrialization, a Polish genocide, and building of cruel colonial networks around Germany. The Nazi Party could probably survive Hitler; I suspect the political functioning would be similar to China's Politboro but with a more independent military.
Italy could possibly see the fascist government fall. Mussolini wasn't in control of Italy the same way that Hitler was of Germany. I could see a political crisis occur in Italy where the Italian government falls apart, Germany stabilizes Italian possessions, then Germany keeps the Italian possessions after the new government doesn't adequately swear fealty to Germany.
Thank you, those are some interesting perspectives!
-
Alternate history is one of my favorite topics, and I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]The fact that the Axis & Allied powers had nations as mascots for the masses to cheer/boo for has done nothing but dull our collective perception of reality: it's corps all the way down, and They won.
