Bluesky is more open than you think.
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Except being independent from the one company that hosts 99% of the network?
Annoyingly, most people aren't interested in that.
Also: I found this list: https://github.com/mary-ext/atproto-scrapingThere's a good few more PDSes than I thought. There's a few with open signups. Though, for relays the situation is a bit more bleak.
I'm sure it will improve in future, there is a lot of orgs planning on setting up AT infrastructure. -
That's at a very different level. With dot social it's about a quarter of the active users on the fediverse, whereas bluesky is probably something like 95% centralized in practice. It seems to keep improving, but right now it's basically impossible to use without mostly interacting with bsky.
99.96% actually.
Bluesky is all but 100% centralised
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I hope I am not adding to the problem here as well. It seems that obviously Bluesky is neither fully centralized nor fully decentralized. Is there a statement about just how much of either it is?
Although that might be complicated - like someone could say that Lemmy is fairly centralized, bc if you block Lemmy.World then you lose half the users and perhaps half the communities (and PieFed even more so, with PieFed.social representing an even higher fraction of users and communities on it).
So there is a distinction between Bluesky the service as it currently is implemented and Bluesky the protocol, the former of which is fairly centralized but the latter is more expandable?
Decentralisation is not black and white, and depends on your defintion of the word.
At this point, the problem is that everyone is on bluesky's servers. There is little technical problems. -
PDS migration works way better on atproto, and objects are portable, unlike on AP.
@irelephant What's the use of portability, when there are no instances and when people are not interested in them
@KentNavalesi -
@irelephant What's the use of portability, when there are no instances and when people are not interested in them
@KentNavalesiThere are instances though.
Portability makes it really easy to migrate accounts. You just need a .car archive of your old one. -
Define decentralised.
As per RFC 9518: Centralization, Decentralization, and Internet Standards,[...] "centralization" is the state of affairs where a single entity or a small group of them can observe, capture, control, or extract rent from the operation or use of an Internet function exclusively.
[Decentralization is when] "complete reliance upon a single point is not always required" (citing Baran, 1964)
[...] federation, i.e., designing a function in a way that uses independent instances that maintain connectivity and interoperability to provide a single cohesive service.
wrote last edited by [email protected]I don't think "decentralised" is the word y'all are disagreeing on. Define platform. Because I think the "platform" you're talking about is the technology underpinning Bluesky (AT Protocol), which is decentralised, and others here are talking about the Bluesky "platform" itself, as in the service which is a single, centralised implementation of AT Protocol.
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Annoyingly, most people aren't interested in that.
Also: I found this list: https://github.com/mary-ext/atproto-scrapingThere's a good few more PDSes than I thought. There's a few with open signups. Though, for relays the situation is a bit more bleak.
I'm sure it will improve in future, there is a lot of orgs planning on setting up AT infrastructure.There’s a good few more PDSes than I thought. There’s a few with open signups.
Any you would recommend?
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No, because you said bluesky is run by Jack dorsey, and you're critising bluesky, not atproto, like you said.
you are a dunce
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There are instances though.
Portability makes it really easy to migrate accounts. You just need a .car archive of your old one.So bluesky is as decentralized as mastodon, but you achieve that by running a relay instead of a server? Do I have that right?
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Decentralisation is not black and white, and depends on your defintion of the word.
At this point, the problem is that everyone is on bluesky's servers. There is little technical problems.That seems a very good way to phrase it.
The next issue then becomes cost. Which affects Lemmy as well: first there is the requisite effort to set up and self-host even a tiny instance (especially as it relates to potential spam and CSAM attacks), and second the network traffic costs. The latter may be tiny for a single user who only subscribes to a handful of communities, but someone trying to browse All and wanting everything to be available for their perusal (even if deleted soon-ish for storage reasons) will bear a much higher burden. Which depending on local costs may be trivially easy... or prohibitively expensive, but in either case the more data that someone wants to pull in the higher the cost.
And I imagine that Bluesky is either similar, or significantly worse.
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I hope I am not adding to the problem here as well. It seems that obviously Bluesky is neither fully centralized nor fully decentralized. Is there a statement about just how much of either it is?
Although that might be complicated - like someone could say that Lemmy is fairly centralized, bc if you block Lemmy.World then you lose half the users and perhaps half the communities (and PieFed even more so, with PieFed.social representing an even higher fraction of users and communities on it).
So there is a distinction between Bluesky the service as it currently is implemented and Bluesky the protocol, the former of which is fairly centralized but the latter is more expandable?
then you lose half the users and perhaps half the communities
As a thought, do you really lose them?
For example the "Television" community previously existed on the lemm.ee instance. The lemm.ee instance is scheduled for shutdown. The "Television" community is now hosted on the piefed.social instance.
It has the same users and has the same topics of discussion. Were the users really lost? Did the community really go away?
Let's pretend Reddit decided it would no longer allow discussion on "Television". What if BlueSky no longer allowed discussion on "Television". You'd have to leave those platforms completely. You really would lose those communities. Those users (at least in part) really would be gone.
Is Lemmy.World a big instance? Sure. Would the users and communities really be lost if it went away? I don't think so.
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then you lose half the users and perhaps half the communities
As a thought, do you really lose them?
For example the "Television" community previously existed on the lemm.ee instance. The lemm.ee instance is scheduled for shutdown. The "Television" community is now hosted on the piefed.social instance.
It has the same users and has the same topics of discussion. Were the users really lost? Did the community really go away?
Let's pretend Reddit decided it would no longer allow discussion on "Television". What if BlueSky no longer allowed discussion on "Television". You'd have to leave those platforms completely. You really would lose those communities. Those users (at least in part) really would be gone.
Is Lemmy.World a big instance? Sure. Would the users and communities really be lost if it went away? I don't think so.
If Lemmy.World went away, then correct you would not "lose" the users as, well you said it, they would simply move to another instance.
But if Lemmy.World remained and you blocked it (if you had a method to do that - it's not easy at all using base Lemmy but it is doable with some older apps or like Ublock Origin filter rules and such), then in that context you would indeed "lose" all of that content. Or like if you got banned from that instance then that's another way that you could "lose" access to engage with communities located on it.
The more centralized something is, like Reddit, the more damaging it is to lose access to it, while the more decentralized, as you pointed out, the less overall effect that perturbations have upon the network.
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There’s a good few more PDSes than I thought. There’s a few with open signups.
Any you would recommend?
Sign ups aren't actually open though, but I can generate an invite code.
Honestly, less than 3K independent PDS is genuinely insane. That's about 14,000 users per PDS provider. For comparison, if Lemmy had that same kind of concentration, there'd be 3-4 instances. PDS providers are also piss easy to host.
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Sign ups aren't actually open though, but I can generate an invite code.
Honestly, less than 3K independent PDS is genuinely insane. That's about 14,000 users per PDS provider. For comparison, if Lemmy had that same kind of concentration, there'd be 3-4 instances. PDS providers are also piss easy to host.
Thank you for your feedback! No need for a code, but knowing that sign ups are disabled is already a sign
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So bluesky is as decentralized as mastodon, but you achieve that by running a relay instead of a server? Do I have that right?
No, mastodon is more decentralised than bluesky, but its designed so that PDSes aren't that important, unlike mastodon.
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I don't think "decentralised" is the word y'all are disagreeing on. Define platform. Because I think the "platform" you're talking about is the technology underpinning Bluesky (AT Protocol), which is decentralised, and others here are talking about the Bluesky "platform" itself, as in the service which is a single, centralised implementation of AT Protocol.
I use them interchanagbly, which has proved to be a mistake.
Kinda like how mastodon and fediverse are used interchangably. -
That seems a very good way to phrase it.
The next issue then becomes cost. Which affects Lemmy as well: first there is the requisite effort to set up and self-host even a tiny instance (especially as it relates to potential spam and CSAM attacks), and second the network traffic costs. The latter may be tiny for a single user who only subscribes to a handful of communities, but someone trying to browse All and wanting everything to be available for their perusal (even if deleted soon-ish for storage reasons) will bear a much higher burden. Which depending on local costs may be trivially easy... or prohibitively expensive, but in either case the more data that someone wants to pull in the higher the cost.
And I imagine that Bluesky is either similar, or significantly worse.
Bluesky would work better for that, since everything would be on the AppView. Hosting multiple appviews would be intensive on the relays, but different ones could keep content for different amounts of time.
I think AP works better when you don't need or want all the information to be available at once.
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I see a lot of misinformation about bluesky here, so I want to address a lot of the talking points against atproto/bluesky.
This is partially inspired by accounts like mastodon migration and feditips being really annoying about bluesky.
How Bluesky Works
I see a lot of people misunderstanding how it works.
The network has three main parts:- A PDS -- This stands for Personal Data Server. These store information in records, like who you are following, your posts, who you are blocking and your images.
- A relay -- These crawl PDSes and keep a copy of all the records on them. They give a "Firehose" of all the data on the network (that they crawled).
- An AppView -- These index and work through the data from the firehose. All interactions are handled through these, meaning if someone follows me on bluesky, that
app.bsky.graph.followrecord will be crawled by the relay, and recieved by the AppView. https://bsky.app/ is an Appview. Appviews don't always have to use the relays, https://whtwnd.com/ connects to PDSes directly.
This is different to ActivityPub, where if I follow someone, my server sends that information directly to the other person's server.
Common misconceptions
An atproto relay is too expensive to run.
https://atproto.africa/ is a second full-network relay run by the blacksky team. We already have a second relay, and they're not even that expensive to run anymore, a lot of people run non-archival (meaning it doesn't backfill every post) relays for less than $40 a month.
There is no instances available except for bsky.social
bsky.social isn't actually an instance, its just the domain name assigned to users by default. This is explained here: https://app.wafrn.net/fediverse/post/f8fc8da8-cd7e-4fae-a895-ac59dc28088f
Wafrn has (opt-in) bluesky support, they act as a PDS and AppView, so if bluesky disappears tomorrow they can switch to the atproto.africa relay. (There is DID:PLC which is a problem, but I'll get to that later.)
You can't defederate bsky.social, this proves atproto is centralised!
https://app.wafrn.net/fediverse/post/f8fc8da8-cd7e-4fae-a895-ac59dc28088f also explains this, bsky.social is just the name assigned to users, each PDS has names like https://brittlegill.us-west.host.bsky.network/ (where my account is).
While you could ignore records from a specific PDS on the App layer, its pretty pointless, since atproto is portable/content addressed, meaning a user could seamlessly move to another PDS. (AP does support moving, but its pretty seamful.)
(While I was writing this someone posted a pretty good blogpost about this: https://blog.cyrneko.eu/there-is-no-bsky-social-instance)
Bluesky can censor people in turkey, this proves they're centralised!
Those posts weren't removed, people on third party bluesky apps in turkey could still see them.
People in Turkey are automatically subscribed to a Moderation Service which hides those posts, as the government requires it.
If a person unsubscribes, or uses a third party app/server the posts are still there.Bluesky isn't decentralised as someone was banned for pointing out the head of T&S liked jailbait porn.
That person came back on a different PDS. They literally are still on bluesky because they joined a different server.
Bluesky went down due to a DDoS, this proves they are centralised!
The DDoS only crashed the Bluesky PDSes. People self hosting were fine.
Wafrn
Wafrn is a federated tumblr alternative. It started off as a tumblr clone, the dev added AP support, and eventually, Atproto support.
Its a great example of how bluesky can be built on.
If bluesky disappeared tomorrow, Wafrn could switch relays to atproto.africa, and still interact with people on other PDSes.
AppViewLite
appviewlite is a cool project I forgot to mention in the original post. It lets you self host an extremely lightweight Appview.
You can crawl PDSes yourself, eliminating the need for a relay.
https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLiteThe main reason I made this post is because so many people are blindly anti-atproto, without fully understanding how it works and how it can be improved.
There is obviously problems with it, but it does a lot right. (There's a lot ActivityPub should do, like content addressing, DIDs and composable moderation).
I also think we could do with a better bridge. bridgy isn't really cutting it right now.
Note on did:plc, its the only centralised part of the network as of now, its essentially the underlying ID every account has. It is possible to use a did:web id instead, which is tied to a website name.
maybe open technically. but my impression of BlueSky is that it is full of neoliberal status quo apologists. would be happy to be wrong.
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Bluesky would work better for that, since everything would be on the AppView. Hosting multiple appviews would be intensive on the relays, but different ones could keep content for different amounts of time.
I think AP works better when you don't need or want all the information to be available at once.
One issue for me, and this is also true of Mastodon and by extension Mbin, is that I greatly prefer the voting and focus on a topic area rather than person. X / Twitter / Mastodon / Bluesky is where celebrities go to increase their profits, fame, and relevance, while Reddit / Lemmy / PieFed (/ + nodeBB + flarum + others) are where we discuss matters of import. I'm not criticizing your post here - this is definitely the correct community to discuss such matters:-) - just interjecting my personal preferences into the conversation, to disclose my own biases.
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One issue for me, and this is also true of Mastodon and by extension Mbin, is that I greatly prefer the voting and focus on a topic area rather than person. X / Twitter / Mastodon / Bluesky is where celebrities go to increase their profits, fame, and relevance, while Reddit / Lemmy / PieFed (/ + nodeBB + flarum + others) are where we discuss matters of import. I'm not criticizing your post here - this is definitely the correct community to discuss such matters:-) - just interjecting my personal preferences into the conversation, to disclose my own biases.
I like both formats, but I do prefer forum-style conversation.
https://frontpage.fyi/ is a link-aggregator built on atproto.
