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  3. Big Tech Wants You Trapped. The Open Web Sets You Free

Big Tech Wants You Trapped. The Open Web Sets You Free

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  • joel_feila@lemmy.worldJ [email protected]

    And the extremism follow.

    D This user is from outside of this forum
    D This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote on last edited by
    #88

    That's fine by me. I'm capable of ignoring that. Call me anything you want. Insult my family, my life, my person, my culture; I literally don't care. I'm either going to ignore you or respond accordingly. Let the extremist come in. Everyone that can't handle it is a weak wimp that isn't worthy of the free internet.

    joel_feila@lemmy.worldJ 1 Reply Last reply
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    • R [email protected]

      That hasn’t been true for a long time. Filtering bots has increasingly become more difficult, expensive, and sophisticated. Not to mention that there are still plenty of state sponsored bad actors using real people and hybrid approaches.

      D This user is from outside of this forum
      D This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote on last edited by
      #89

      What's your solution to that? Not filtering out bots? Or manually moderating? The latter is even more expensive.

      R 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • D [email protected]

        What's your solution to that? Not filtering out bots? Or manually moderating? The latter is even more expensive.

        R This user is from outside of this forum
        R This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote on last edited by
        #90

        Your proposal is equivalent to just letting bots completely control the internet. It kills it. We either want an internet or we don’t.

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • railwhale@lemmy.nzR [email protected]

          John Mastodon.

          U This user is from outside of this forum
          U This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote on last edited by
          #91

          My grandfather met John Mastodon in 1861. He says he was very nice.

          1 Reply Last reply
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          • sortekanin@feddit.dkS [email protected]

            people good at UX don’t seem to care as much about FOSS and the open web

            I'm not sure this is true - at least I have an alternative explanation.

            People who do the UX design and all that are rarely invited into the process. Open source projects often look for "maintainers" but this almost exclusively means "developers".

            There's documentation and contributing guidelines for developers. Where is the same material for product managers or designers?

            We don't get product managers and designers in FOSS because they've never been invited.

            S This user is from outside of this forum
            S This user is from outside of this forum
            [email protected]
            wrote on last edited by
            #92

            What do you mean by "invite"? What would that look like?

            My perspective of designers and product managers is that they like to own projects. FOSS generally works based on merit, where you first contribute and members of the project decide whether to accept it.

            For developers this is easy:

            1. Contribute code
            2. Code is accepted or rejected

            That's how it should work for design as well. Contribute some designs that you think will improve the UX and if they're desirable, someone will take up implementing them. If it's easy (e.g. a new logo), it'll get done right away, and if it's more involved, it'll get done as devs get time.

            Project management is trickier because that requires buy-in from the devs. To get there, you need go earn their trust:

            • help triage bugs (propose a severity system if there isn't one)
            • help organize a roadmap
            • do some leg work marketing whatever the project needs (go find designers if needed).

            If you do a good job, they'll let you do the above more autonomously. But they're not just going to hand over decision-making to a rando off the street, especially since "they" can change day to day.

            Developers don't like being told what to do (esp since it's usually a hobby), but they do want the project to be more successful. Designers and product managers are certainly welcome, but the onus is on any contributor to demonstrate the value they bring.

            sortekanin@feddit.dkS 1 Reply Last reply
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            • lion@programming.devL [email protected]

              This post is... Well a little lacking in my opinion. I am someone who believes that if we can't tolerate different opinions in different spaces that isn't a good way to engage in good faith anyway. While I like the fediverse. Example: Mastodon and Pixelfed. The platforms themselves isn't always the most user friendly and to me at least is a little lacking. I'm also confused as to why this post flat out doesn't mention bluesky as well but I digress. It's a very new thing to look at what social platform people use as a political statement. Of course we all know MAGA supporters use Truth Social and X (Twitter). At the end of the day when less and less people refuse to come to the table and find common ground the more violent and destructive the world is going to become. Violence only creates more violence. imo.

              gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.comG This user is from outside of this forum
              gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.comG This user is from outside of this forum
              [email protected]
              wrote on last edited by
              #93

              I am someone who believes that if we can't tolerate different opinions in different spaces that isn't a good way to engage in good faith anyway

              So you've not been paying attention the last 20 years? Letting Nazis be Nazis on your platform just turns it into a Nazi platform

              lion@programming.devL 1 Reply Last reply
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              • S [email protected]

                What do you mean by "invite"? What would that look like?

                My perspective of designers and product managers is that they like to own projects. FOSS generally works based on merit, where you first contribute and members of the project decide whether to accept it.

                For developers this is easy:

                1. Contribute code
                2. Code is accepted or rejected

                That's how it should work for design as well. Contribute some designs that you think will improve the UX and if they're desirable, someone will take up implementing them. If it's easy (e.g. a new logo), it'll get done right away, and if it's more involved, it'll get done as devs get time.

                Project management is trickier because that requires buy-in from the devs. To get there, you need go earn their trust:

                • help triage bugs (propose a severity system if there isn't one)
                • help organize a roadmap
                • do some leg work marketing whatever the project needs (go find designers if needed).

                If you do a good job, they'll let you do the above more autonomously. But they're not just going to hand over decision-making to a rando off the street, especially since "they" can change day to day.

                Developers don't like being told what to do (esp since it's usually a hobby), but they do want the project to be more successful. Designers and product managers are certainly welcome, but the onus is on any contributor to demonstrate the value they bring.

                sortekanin@feddit.dkS This user is from outside of this forum
                sortekanin@feddit.dkS This user is from outside of this forum
                [email protected]
                wrote on last edited by
                #94

                What do you mean by “invite”? What would that look like?

                I don't mean a literal invite - I mean that projects are rarely inviting for product managers and designer (let's call them "UX people") and rarely do they encourage those people to contribute.

                Let's take a look at Lemmy as an example (and please don't misunderstand, this is not to bash Lemmy specifically, this happens for so many FOSS projects). Let's put ourselves in the shoes of a UX person who wants to contribute to Lemmy. How would I (the imaginary UX person) do that?

                Well, on join-lemmy.org there's not really any links to anything to do with contributing but there is a link to "GitHub" in the contact information. As a UX person, I may have a vague idea what git and GitHub is, but obviously that's not a tool that I use. So then I land on the git repository on GitHub. Oh great, there's a "Contributing" section! It says:

                Read the following documentation to setup the development environment and start coding

                Oh. So that's contributing code and stuff. So that's not me. But okay since there's nothing else, let's try and go to the contributing guidelines anyway. But this just gives a technical overview of the different software components of Lemmy, and then goes into how to setup local development. This is all mumbo-jumbo to me, I know nothing about coding, I am a UX person.

                My point is (and again, Lemmy is just an example here), none of these contributing guidelines are helpful unless you are a developer, and the fact that the contributing guidelines only caters to developers makes any UX person feel out of place, as if their expertise is not wanted or needed. This is what I mean when I say it is not very inviting to UX people. It is very inviting to developers though.

                That’s how it should work for design as well. Contribute some designs that you think will improve the UX and if they’re desirable, someone will take up implementing them. If it’s easy (e.g. a new logo), it’ll get done right away, and if it’s more involved, it’ll get done as devs get time.

                I agree! But how are designers supposed to know where to even start? There are "good first issues", but those are also only for developers. Where's the contributing guidelines for non-developers? You say "Designers and product managers are certainly welcome", but this doesn't look that welcoming to me!

                My perspective of designers and product managers is that they like to own projects.

                I think this is a bit of a mischaracterization. I don't think a product manager has to "own" the project to help and be valuable to a project.

                One project that does this quite well is bevy. See this video from one of the product manager contributors to bevy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PJaiSpbmc

                G S 2 Replies Last reply
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                • D [email protected]

                  That's fine by me. I'm capable of ignoring that. Call me anything you want. Insult my family, my life, my person, my culture; I literally don't care. I'm either going to ignore you or respond accordingly. Let the extremist come in. Everyone that can't handle it is a weak wimp that isn't worthy of the free internet.

                  joel_feila@lemmy.worldJ This user is from outside of this forum
                  joel_feila@lemmy.worldJ This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #95

                  If they stay on the net fine, but no amount of tick skin n is bullet proof. Its not if but when those extremists move off line.

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • J [email protected]
                    This post did not contain any content.
                    S This user is from outside of this forum
                    S This user is from outside of this forum
                    [email protected]
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #96

                    Great read, thank you for sharing.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • G [email protected]

                      I agree with the sentiment of this post. In fact, I was trapped (and extremely discontent) on Facebook for the first half of my digital-life; before finding open-source - and the rest is history.

                      I am afraid that we are not doing nearly enough however. This (like most things in this world) is a multilayered issue with no quick-fix, but the core of it is that many (and I mean MANY) of us are tech illiterate. Worse so, even more of us are math illiterate.

                      This generally means that most cannot cope with the current world we live in, and are experiencing extreme levels of inertia. I was here at one point, so I know how difficult this transition is.

                      An open web existing (on its own) won't do much - its the culture that needs to change. We need to be equipped to think, fight, and adapt - or our spaces won't survive. We are in a constant arms race with bad actors and ALL OF US need to be capable to win this fight. When the bots come to Lemmy (and they will), are most of us prepared to handle filter-lists, run servers, and potentially create a web-of-trust? I doubt this.

                      I would really like to see a return to real-life communication for most things (as humans are, from birth, well adapted to this) and the open-web only be used for automation and coordination. I think the most freedom comes from stability and the internet (in general) just does not offer that.

                      S This user is from outside of this forum
                      S This user is from outside of this forum
                      [email protected]
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #97

                      I think you're forgetting Lemmy already has a pretty high barrier to entry tech wise, I think most of us will be fine.

                      G 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.comG [email protected]

                        I am someone who believes that if we can't tolerate different opinions in different spaces that isn't a good way to engage in good faith anyway

                        So you've not been paying attention the last 20 years? Letting Nazis be Nazis on your platform just turns it into a Nazi platform

                        lion@programming.devL This user is from outside of this forum
                        lion@programming.devL This user is from outside of this forum
                        [email protected]
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #98

                        Everything you're saying is just fear mongering in my opinion. Also bad faith as you only point out the most extreme examples right off the bat. I don't engage with extremism you ARE a part of the problem.

                        0 R 2 Replies Last reply
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                        • moitoi@lemmy.dbzer0.comM [email protected]

                          Any great app on Android for mastodon?

                          roserose56@lemmy.caR This user is from outside of this forum
                          roserose56@lemmy.caR This user is from outside of this forum
                          [email protected]
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #99

                          check also here for more apps
                          https://joinmastodon.org/apps

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • sortekanin@feddit.dkS [email protected]

                            The major platforms are convenient.

                            But the open web offers something better: genuine ownership, community governance, and independence.

                            This has a kind of underlying connotation that the open web can't be convenient. This is not true.

                            It is true that lots of platforms on the fediverse (Lemmy included) don't have the best user experience and user journey flow. But that's not how it has to be. We don't have to accept that as a given.

                            It's the same problem that Linux faces, where UX issues aren't prioritised because the user base is technical enough to deal with the bullshit. We can't let the same thing occur to the fediverse.

                            chaoscruiser@futurology.todayC This user is from outside of this forum
                            chaoscruiser@futurology.todayC This user is from outside of this forum
                            [email protected]
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #100

                            Back in the old days, you could register an account without giving your phone number. Nowadays, pretty much all the big social medias won't let you register an account without a number. I guess that's not a big problem for people who don't care about privacy, but for me that's a total deal breaker.

                            K 1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • sortekanin@feddit.dkS [email protected]

                              What do you mean by “invite”? What would that look like?

                              I don't mean a literal invite - I mean that projects are rarely inviting for product managers and designer (let's call them "UX people") and rarely do they encourage those people to contribute.

                              Let's take a look at Lemmy as an example (and please don't misunderstand, this is not to bash Lemmy specifically, this happens for so many FOSS projects). Let's put ourselves in the shoes of a UX person who wants to contribute to Lemmy. How would I (the imaginary UX person) do that?

                              Well, on join-lemmy.org there's not really any links to anything to do with contributing but there is a link to "GitHub" in the contact information. As a UX person, I may have a vague idea what git and GitHub is, but obviously that's not a tool that I use. So then I land on the git repository on GitHub. Oh great, there's a "Contributing" section! It says:

                              Read the following documentation to setup the development environment and start coding

                              Oh. So that's contributing code and stuff. So that's not me. But okay since there's nothing else, let's try and go to the contributing guidelines anyway. But this just gives a technical overview of the different software components of Lemmy, and then goes into how to setup local development. This is all mumbo-jumbo to me, I know nothing about coding, I am a UX person.

                              My point is (and again, Lemmy is just an example here), none of these contributing guidelines are helpful unless you are a developer, and the fact that the contributing guidelines only caters to developers makes any UX person feel out of place, as if their expertise is not wanted or needed. This is what I mean when I say it is not very inviting to UX people. It is very inviting to developers though.

                              That’s how it should work for design as well. Contribute some designs that you think will improve the UX and if they’re desirable, someone will take up implementing them. If it’s easy (e.g. a new logo), it’ll get done right away, and if it’s more involved, it’ll get done as devs get time.

                              I agree! But how are designers supposed to know where to even start? There are "good first issues", but those are also only for developers. Where's the contributing guidelines for non-developers? You say "Designers and product managers are certainly welcome", but this doesn't look that welcoming to me!

                              My perspective of designers and product managers is that they like to own projects.

                              I think this is a bit of a mischaracterization. I don't think a product manager has to "own" the project to help and be valuable to a project.

                              One project that does this quite well is bevy. See this video from one of the product manager contributors to bevy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PJaiSpbmc

                              G This user is from outside of this forum
                              G This user is from outside of this forum
                              [email protected]
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #101

                              You make an excellent point, and I've never thought about it this way before.

                              Devs are not newbie friendly at all. We were all noobs at some point and (if we're being honest) remember the excruciating pain it took to become versed. Most people are not going to go through this, so FOSS naturally loses a lot of non-tech talent (including UX).

                              What I didn't think about is that there really isn't a way for UX people to contribute at all. GitHub Issues, at most, allows for people to make feature-requests - but beyond that it's just not viable.

                              For example, I am a UX designer and would like to contribute or iterate a layout. My demonstration includes several images and a video. First off, where do I do this? I could use GitHub Issues, but this is an extremely painful process that is likely far removed from my normal workflow. I could use YouTube, and then link on GitHub issues - but then I have to jump through several annoying hoops for a still sub-optimal workflow.

                              Git itself also has worked very poorly with binary files (png jpg mp3 wav...) until the recent advent of git-lfs. Binary iteration using base git is just a non-starter.

                              I am shocked to say it, but I cannot think of any development UI that is actually decent for non-tech people. If anyone does FOSS UX, and I am wrong about the tooling, please correct me.

                              S 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • S [email protected]

                                I think you're forgetting Lemmy already has a pretty high barrier to entry tech wise, I think most of us will be fine.

                                G This user is from outside of this forum
                                G This user is from outside of this forum
                                [email protected]
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #102

                                This is true, but only for now.

                                The point of decentralized social platforms is to eventually include everyone. This is not to say this is Lemmy's goal, but it is certainly the goal of its users. The tech-illiterate will show up en-masse (they always do) and what will be our answer for it? From what I see, we have none - this is no different than living on borrowed time.

                                We have to remember that "enshittification", before all else, is a cultural issue. When the people that have this culture arrive, the whole platform will suffer for it (hence what I said earlier). Humans are just better with dealing with this in real-life, but the internet poses a lot more challenges that I just do not think we are ready for.

                                S 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • lion@programming.devL [email protected]

                                  Everything you're saying is just fear mongering in my opinion. Also bad faith as you only point out the most extreme examples right off the bat. I don't engage with extremism you ARE a part of the problem.

                                  0 This user is from outside of this forum
                                  0 This user is from outside of this forum
                                  [email protected]
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #103

                                  No, they're completely right. Destructive, hateful opinions are not "just different opinions", they are actively destroying and bastardizing the discussions and making people feel unwelcome. They are not to be tolerated unless you want all normal people to leave and only the assholes to stay, just like what is happening with Twitter.

                                  Fuck nazis and their sympathizers.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • lion@programming.devL [email protected]

                                    Everything you're saying is just fear mongering in my opinion. Also bad faith as you only point out the most extreme examples right off the bat. I don't engage with extremism you ARE a part of the problem.

                                    R This user is from outside of this forum
                                    R This user is from outside of this forum
                                    [email protected]
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #104

                                    The problem is giving them a platform has let the extremists on the Right to come to power in the United States. Hearing differing opinions is one thing, tolerating the attacking of minorities and the destruction of a functioning government is another. How much debate are we supposed to engage in before we say enough is enough?

                                    1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • G [email protected]

                                      This is true, but only for now.

                                      The point of decentralized social platforms is to eventually include everyone. This is not to say this is Lemmy's goal, but it is certainly the goal of its users. The tech-illiterate will show up en-masse (they always do) and what will be our answer for it? From what I see, we have none - this is no different than living on borrowed time.

                                      We have to remember that "enshittification", before all else, is a cultural issue. When the people that have this culture arrive, the whole platform will suffer for it (hence what I said earlier). Humans are just better with dealing with this in real-life, but the internet poses a lot more challenges that I just do not think we are ready for.

                                      S This user is from outside of this forum
                                      S This user is from outside of this forum
                                      [email protected]
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #105

                                      1: we've been waiting for the masses to arrive for about 2 years now, there was a peak, then a significant fall off
                                      2: there is a solution, and we talk about it all the time: simplify onboarding

                                      I think you may just not be hanging around in the instance development and community servers if you're not seeing these conversations

                                      1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • chaoscruiser@futurology.todayC [email protected]

                                        Back in the old days, you could register an account without giving your phone number. Nowadays, pretty much all the big social medias won't let you register an account without a number. I guess that's not a big problem for people who don't care about privacy, but for me that's a total deal breaker.

                                        K This user is from outside of this forum
                                        K This user is from outside of this forum
                                        [email protected]
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #106

                                        Yeah but who doesn’t have at least a cell phone these days (unless you’re making many accounts)? They’re useful for 2 factor authentication too.

                                        chaoscruiser@futurology.todayC 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • S [email protected]

                                          And you will be the one deciding what constitutes hate, whose voice to cut off?

                                          M This user is from outside of this forum
                                          M This user is from outside of this forum
                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #107

                                          It will be me. You have freedom of speech. I am also free to ignore, mock or ostracize you if you spout hateful nonsense near me.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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