Ubuntu explores replacing gnu utils with rust based uutils
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but they do exist and most of those would be solved with a memory and type safe language.
Maybe.
Still, there are other sources of bugs beyond memory management.
And i'd rather have GPL-ed potentially unsafe C code to... closed-source Rust code.
To add to @[email protected]
The uutils are MIT licensed, simply put it means “do whatever you want with it, as long as you credit us”.
The coreutils are GPL, simply put “do whatever you want with it but only in other GPL works, also credit us”.The coreutils make sure forks will also be open source.
While the uutils aren't closed source, they do allow you to make closed source forks.The uutils' license is too permissive.
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The best example I could point to would be BSD. Unlike Linux, the BSD kernel was BSD (essentially MIT) -licensed. This allowed Apple to take their code and build OSX and a multi-billion dollar company on top of it, giving sweet fuck all back the community they stole from.
That's the moral argument: it enables thievery.
The technical argument is one of practicality. MIT-licensed projects often lead to proprietary projects (see: Apple, Android, Chrome, etc) that use up all the oxygen in an ecosystem and allow one company to dominate where once we had the latitude to use better alternatives.
- Step 1 is replacing coreutils with uutils.
- Step 2 is Canonical, Google, or someone else stealing uutils to build a proprietary "fuutils" that boasts better speeds, features, or interoperation with $PROPRIETARY_PRODUCT, or maybe even a new proprietary kernel.
- Steep 3 is where inevitably uutils is abandoned and coreutils hasn't been updated in 10 years. Welcome to 1978, we're back to using UNIX.
The GPL is the tool that got us here, and it makes these exploitative techbros furious that they can't just steal our shit for their personal profit. We gain nothing by helping them, but stand to lose a great deal.
Thanks for your explanation.
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I know they aren't limited to linux, but can you give me an example of a situation where this matters?
All of the situations I can think of are remedied by the fact that linux is still GPL'd
I will give you one. You want to embed the coreutils in some other projects ie. a browser. But at that point it's cheaper for you to submit your modification upstream because you are making money selling the browser not by selling modified coreutils. Maintaining your own fork is not worth it once you make meaningful changes.~~ I think this is the reason why uutils are being funded by Big Tech and why they chose this license. (to get funded)~~ correction: I only found that they are funded by the Sovereign Tech Fund and apparently the author is open to changing the license, they don't care.
But yes, I agree this whole comment section is deranged. The reason why Ubuntu chose uutils is because of Rust's safety and because of speed. In some workloads (I think it's sorting) they totally smash the GNU counterparts.
For Ubuntu it does not make any sense to make a proprietary fork. You don't choose your OS based on its coreutils. If they added a new convenience flag for their proprietary grep, it would just make them look bad. Also skilled users would hate it because now their scripts would not be portable. Or if it were really that big of a gamechanger, the feature would get added to the other coreutils and Ubuntu would end up with nothing but bad reputation. Unless they made change to the underlying code for performance. Then it would be harder to implement in the other coreutils but as I said before, nobody would care. Faster and safer coreutils are a nice to have, not something people base their OS choice on.
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The Rust code isn't closed source, but I'd strongly prefer a coreutils replacement to use GPL over MIT as well.
The Rust code isn’t closed source yet
FTFY -
It can be forked by anyone, but what is already out there will always be there.
To give you an example, if git was under the MIT license instead of open source, then Microsoft can silently add incompatible features to GitHub without anyone knowing. The regular git client appears to work for a while. Then they start advertising msgit with some extra GitHub features and shortcuts. Once they get to 50% adoption they simply kill the open source version off.
When Slack was first rolling out the dev team in my office of 50 people we all hated it. Thankfully it had an IRC bridge so we could use Slack through IRC. It was seemingly the same experience as before except more business users were in the chat rooms. Once the Corp side of the business were onboard, they dropped IRC support, forcing us to use their clients.
Now it doesn’t matter that rules or laws or privacy invasion they do. They have captured the companies communications and can hold it hostage.
I’ve seen it again and again. When is the last time you downloaded an MP3 file?
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At first I was sceptical, but after a few thought, I came to the solution that, if uutils can do the same stuff, is/stays actively maintained and more secure/safe (like memory bugs), this is a good change.
What are your thoughts abouth this?
My scepticism is that this should've been done within the coreutils project, or at least very closely affiliated. This isn't an arra of the linux technical stack that we should tolerate being made distro-specific, especially when the licensing is controlled by a single organisation that famously picks and chooses its interpretation of "FOSS" to suit its profit margins.
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Somewhat ironic example.
X (Xorg) has been MT licensed for 40 years. So is Wayland. So is Mesa.
I think Xorg is a good example of the real world risks for something like core utils. If you did not know or care until now that X and Wayland were MIT licensed, you probably do not need to care too much about utils licensing either.
Here's a better example: the use of GPL software (primarily Linux and busybox) by Linksys when they made their wrt54g router was used to compel them into releasing the source code of the firmware for that router. Subsequent GPL enforcement by the SFC made Cisco release full firmware sources for a whole series of Linksys routers. Thanks to those sources openwrt, ddwrt and several other open source router firmwares developed.
I can now run three openwrt routers in my home purely thanks to the GPL. If those projects had been MIT licensed, Linksys and Cisco could have just politely told everyone to go suck a lemon because they would have had no obligation to release anything.
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Waiting for Canonical to up sell proprietary features for a subscription. Ubuntu's regular release cycles were brilliant in 2004 when there weren't a lot of alternatives but why does it still exist?
Sorry, "tee" is not part of the basic Ubuntu package. Do you want to unlock premium coreutils for the cheap price of 19.99$ p.m.?
Alternatively, upgrade your Ubuntu pro to pro-double-plus-good for 10$ p.m. -
Ideas can only be patented, not copyrighted. If a company designs something novel enough to qualify for a patent, and so good that people willingly pay for the feature, that's impressive, and arguably still a good thing. If instead they design a better user experience, or an improvement in performance, the ideas can be used in open source, even when the code cannot be.
Patents kill innovation. No one should be granted rights to a concept purely because they got to it first. It’s still really.
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At first I was sceptical, but after a few thought, I came to the solution that, if uutils can do the same stuff, is/stays actively maintained and more secure/safe (like memory bugs), this is a good change.
What are your thoughts abouth this?
I prefer a glibc replacement.
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Sorry, "tee" is not part of the basic Ubuntu package. Do you want to unlock premium coreutils for the cheap price of 19.99$ p.m.?
Alternatively, upgrade your Ubuntu pro to pro-double-plus-good for 10$ p.m.What does this have to do with MIT licensing?
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Mint is basically Ubuntu with all of Canonical's BS removed. This definitely counts as Cononical BS, so I'd be surprised if it made its way into Mint.
Canonical making open source software that is more secure than the code it replaces and offering it for free is canonical bs? If so give me more.
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Time for Mecha-Stallman to declare war.
It's funny since don't these core utils come from bsd meaning the new license is more like the original license than gpl is like either. So didn't gnu effectively steal the code and change the license for political reasons?
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I fear moving away from GPL that moving to Rust seems to bring, but Rust does fix real memory issues.
So you prefer closed-source code to potentially unsafe open-source code?
Take the recent rsync vulnerabilities for example.
Already fixed, in software that's existed for years and is used by millions. But Oh no, memory issues, let's rewrite that in <language of the month>! will surely result in a better outcome.
Rust isn't language of the month unless you've been asleep for a decade.
What about the rust version is closed source?
This whole post is very disingenuous.
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The Rust code isn’t closed source yet
FTFYWhat the fuck is wrong with your brain?
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At first I was sceptical, but after a few thought, I came to the solution that, if uutils can do the same stuff, is/stays actively maintained and more secure/safe (like memory bugs), this is a good change.
What are your thoughts abouth this?
I'm mixed on it. If it is more secure/safe then that's a good thing, but if it's done because it's MIT-licensed instead of GPL-licensed, then that could possibly be concerning.
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My scepticism is that this should've been done within the coreutils project, or at least very closely affiliated. This isn't an arra of the linux technical stack that we should tolerate being made distro-specific, especially when the licensing is controlled by a single organisation that famously picks and chooses its interpretation of "FOSS" to suit its profit margins.
uutils is not distro-specific.
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uutils/Linux?
Systemd/Linux
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At first I was sceptical, but after a few thought, I came to the solution that, if uutils can do the same stuff, is/stays actively maintained and more secure/safe (like memory bugs), this is a good change.
What are your thoughts abouth this?
On the one hand, Toybox exists. So, the non-copyleft license bs isn't new. On the other hand, toybox afaik isnt aiming to treat "deviations with GNu as bugs". Almost feels hostile-takeover-ish though I know that almost certinly isn't the idea behindbit.
If this ends in proprietization bs I'm going to throw hands.
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