Ukraine, nuclear deterrence, military spending... Emmanuel Macron's ideas for "waking up" Europe [FR]
-
As an alternative, he and Starmer have put on the table a "truce in the air, on the seas and energy infrastructures" that would last a month.
Ukrainians are now very good at fixing their infrastructure and winter is ending. Meanwhile, Russia had to stop exports of petrol because their refineries keep getting bombed. This proposal seems very bad for Ukraine but I guess that’s one way to mask that Ukraine has no access to western air defence missiles anymore.
Why should Ukraine not have access to European made air defence missiles anymore?
-
Why should Ukraine not have access to European made air defence missiles anymore?
So, I am not all that up-to-date on weapons systems -- but wouldn't European missiles chiefly mean the Taurus system that Germany is already not delivering to Ukraine?
-
So, I am not all that up-to-date on weapons systems -- but wouldn't European missiles chiefly mean the Taurus system that Germany is already not delivering to Ukraine?
They were talking aboutair defence missiles, e.g. Patriot (US) or IRIS-T (German). The latter hopefully would not be affected by a US embargo.
Yes, Taurus missles, the German equivalent to Storm Shadow, are not in Ukraine (yet?^* ) and are used against high value ground targets.
^* Lets see (and hope) if our next chancellor keeps his word.
-
Why should Ukraine not have access to European made air defence missiles anymore?
Things like mid/long range artillery and air defence rely on US targeting systems regardless of where they are made.
-
Things like mid/long range artillery and air defence rely on US targeting systems regardless of where they are made.
The IRIS-T systems do not have any non European components or systems.
https://esut.de/2022/04/meldungen/33501/bodengebundene-luftverteidigung-2/
-
The IRIS-T systems do not have any non European components or systems.
https://esut.de/2022/04/meldungen/33501/bodengebundene-luftverteidigung-2/
IRIS-T is a short range artillery.
Ukraine never got Taurus.
Ukraine has 28 PzH 2000s total.
-
IRIS-T is a short range artillery.
Ukraine never got Taurus.
Ukraine has 28 PzH 2000s total.
The IRIS-T system in Ukraine are of SLM type, i.e. medium range artillery.
For comparison they lost order of magnitude more of M109
That would mean all of the ~90 units
-
The IRIS-T system in Ukraine are of SLM type, i.e. medium range artillery.
For comparison they lost order of magnitude more of M109
That would mean all of the ~90 units
Mate, I’m saying medium/long range middles rely on American targeting and you’re arguing that it doesn’t affect short/medium range.
Ukraine got more than 90 M109. Where is this coming from, Kiel Institute?
-
Mate, I’m saying medium/long range middles rely on American targeting and you’re arguing that it doesn’t affect short/medium range.
Ukraine got more than 90 M109. Where is this coming from, Kiel Institute?
According to Wikipedia, Ukraine has got 90 M109 units of different variants in service as of 2024.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M109_howitzer#Current
If you've got a better or more accurate source.
Also, not every unit of an amoured vehicle that has been made inoperable due to a hit by an explosive is really 'destroyed' without the option of repair with reasonable amount of work.
-
According to Wikipedia, Ukraine has got 90 M109 units of different variants in service as of 2024.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M109_howitzer#Current
If you've got a better or more accurate source.
Also, not every unit of an amoured vehicle that has been made inoperable due to a hit by an explosive is really 'destroyed' without the option of repair with reasonable amount of work.
Italy alone donated 100+ but their deliveries are not public so we can only track it via sources like Oryx.
-
Italy alone donated 100+ but their deliveries are not public so we can only track it via sources like Oryx.
We can at least assume, there is an upper limit of 150 M109L units: 221 (originally bought) +62 (bought from Switzerland) -123 (sold to Pakistan) -10 (sold to Djibuti)
-
We can at least assume, there is an upper limit of 150 M109L units: 221 (originally bought) +62 (bought from Switzerland) -123 (sold to Pakistan) -10 (sold to Djibuti)
You mentioned pzh2000 as an independent system and I replied with the number delivered is small to consider from Ukrainian perspective. The issue is probably even more complex because there’s also guided shells that actually enable longer ranges on those artillery pieces but honestly I don’t have the faintest idea what Ukraine is using these days.
-
You mentioned pzh2000 as an independent system and I replied with the number delivered is small to consider from Ukrainian perspective. The issue is probably even more complex because there’s also guided shells that actually enable longer ranges on those artillery pieces but honestly I don’t have the faintest idea what Ukraine is using these days.
The information I could find, e.g. on Wikipedia seems to confirm that only few PzH-2000 were lost, but a lot units are undergoing maintenance, as there is lots of wear on the loading mechanism and the lock, as the Ukrainians are "going the extra mile" and pushing the PzH-2000 to it's limits in order to stay out of reach of the russians while operating. This indicates that they are using the EFRB-BB ammunition with 40 km maximum reach and the rocket extended V-LAP ammunition allowing 56 km reach. As I understood, these can not be used in M109 howitzers below the A5 variant. They are limited to ~30 km reach. Also the shoot and scoot ability of the modern howitzers is also an advantage to the older M109 variants before A6 "Paladin". (Ukraine got 18 M109A6 "Paladin" units from the US.)
-
System shared this topic on
