Xbox 360/PS3/(to a lesser extent) Wii owners represent
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Are you referring to the red ring of death on the Xbox? Because that has absolutely nothing to do with ATI. They just made the chips, it's Microsoft that put them on the board. Most of the issues were caused by a poor connection between the chip and the board, not a hell of a lot ATI could do about that.
A lot of it was engineers underestimating the effect of thermals between 80 and 95 degrees for very long times, with cool down cycles in between. The thinking was this was just fine and wouldn't be an issue. It turned out it was an issue, so they learnt from that and later generations didn't really have that issue.
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Are you referring to the red ring of death on the Xbox? Because that has absolutely nothing to do with ATI. They just made the chips, it's Microsoft that put them on the board. Most of the issues were caused by a poor connection between the chip and the board, not a hell of a lot ATI could do about that.
A lot of it was engineers underestimating the effect of thermals between 80 and 95 degrees for very long times, with cool down cycles in between. The thinking was this was just fine and wouldn't be an issue. It turned out it was an issue, so they learnt from that and later generations didn't really have that issue.
As far as I am aware, the 360 GPUs had faulty solder connections (due to poor underfill choice by ATI that couldn't withstand the temperature) between the chips and the interposer, not the interposer and the board, shown by the fact that a lot of red ring 360s show eDRAM errors (i.e. can't communicate to the module on the same interposer, ruling out poor board connections). Microsoft even admitted this in a documentary they made (link), where they said it wasn't the board balls, it was the GPU to interposer balls. A similar underfill choice is also why there are slightly higher failure rates of early Wiis, although nowhere near as bad as 360 due to the low power of the GPU on there.
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As far as I am aware, the 360 GPUs had faulty solder connections (due to poor underfill choice by ATI that couldn't withstand the temperature) between the chips and the interposer, not the interposer and the board, shown by the fact that a lot of red ring 360s show eDRAM errors (i.e. can't communicate to the module on the same interposer, ruling out poor board connections). Microsoft even admitted this in a documentary they made (link), where they said it wasn't the board balls, it was the GPU to interposer balls. A similar underfill choice is also why there are slightly higher failure rates of early Wiis, although nowhere near as bad as 360 due to the low power of the GPU on there.
I thought tsmc chose the poor underfill.
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This post did not contain any content.wrote on last edited by [email protected]
Still got my PS3. What a great console. Uncharted just has no business looking as good as it does running on hardware as old as the PS3 and being nearly twenty years old.
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As far as I am aware, the 360 GPUs had faulty solder connections (due to poor underfill choice by ATI that couldn't withstand the temperature) between the chips and the interposer, not the interposer and the board, shown by the fact that a lot of red ring 360s show eDRAM errors (i.e. can't communicate to the module on the same interposer, ruling out poor board connections). Microsoft even admitted this in a documentary they made (link), where they said it wasn't the board balls, it was the GPU to interposer balls. A similar underfill choice is also why there are slightly higher failure rates of early Wiis, although nowhere near as bad as 360 due to the low power of the GPU on there.
I don't know how much of it was ATI's fault or the fab's, but my understanding is that no one had experience handling that amount of heat.
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I thought tsmc chose the poor underfill.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]It's hard to say for certain whose final call it was to do this underfill (it's a tossup between ATI's design engineers and the packaging partner they chose to work with to get the TSMC chip into a final product), but at the end of the day it was ATI's responsibility to validate the chip and ensure its reliability before shipping it off to Microsoft.
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Apparently you are unaware of the shit storm that's been Nvidia lately.
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How old is this meme? Older than that kid I think.
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Apparently you are unaware of the shit storm that's been Nvidia lately.
Oh, NVIDIA have always been a shitstorm. From making defective PS3 GPUs (the subject of this meme) to the constant hell that is their Linux drivers to melting power connectors, I am astounded anyone trusts them to do anything.
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It's more: making their cards competitive on price and performance lately for team red
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It's more: making their cards competitive on price and performance lately for team red
AMD have been amazing lately. 9070 XT makes buying most other cards in that price range pointless, especially with NVIDIA's melting connectors being genuine hazards. ATI (who were dissolved in 2010 after being bought out by AMD) and NVIDIA in the mid to late 2000s however were dumpster fires in their own ways.
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AMD have been amazing lately. 9070 XT makes buying most other cards in that price range pointless, especially with NVIDIA's melting connectors being genuine hazards. ATI (who were dissolved in 2010 after being bought out by AMD) and NVIDIA in the mid to late 2000s however were dumpster fires in their own ways.
Depends if you can actually find a 9070XT at the price they advertised it at. Once that happens I'll be convinced, right now though that's very much felt like a bit of a bait and switch. Holding out hope though.
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Depends if you can actually find a 9070XT at the price they advertised it at. Once that happens I'll be convinced, right now though that's very much felt like a bit of a bait and switch. Holding out hope though.
Yeah, pricing is not the greatest at the moment, most likely because there's no reference card to keep other prices in check. Still (at least here in the UK) they are still well below the stratospheric NVIDIA prices for a 5070 Ti and are easily available.
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It's hard to say for certain whose final call it was to do this underfill (it's a tossup between ATI's design engineers and the packaging partner they chose to work with to get the TSMC chip into a final product), but at the end of the day it was ATI's responsibility to validate the chip and ensure its reliability before shipping it off to Microsoft.
I always heard that was tsmc's decision.
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Wiis and ps3's weren't crapping out, and the 360 failures weren't due to ati. This meme is dumb. Dumb in the bad meme kinda way.
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Until they got bought by AMD, ATI was more reliable than nVidia cards which were prone to bursting into flames.
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Wiis and ps3's weren't crapping out, and the 360 failures weren't due to ati. This meme is dumb. Dumb in the bad meme kinda way.
Wii was mostly okay, but boards with a 90nm Hollywood GPU are somewhat more likely to fail than later 65nm Hollywood-A boards (so RVL-CPU-40 boards and later), especially if you leave WiiConnect24 on as it keeps the Starlet ARM chip inside active even in fan off standby - most 90nm consoles will be okay due to low operating temperatures, but some (especially as thermal paste ages and dust builds) are more likely to die due to bumpgate related problems.
PS3s did crap out with yellow lights of death, although not as spectacularly as 360 red rings (lower proportion due to beefier cooling and different design making the flaws less immediately obvious, but still a problem). NVIDIA on the RSX made the same mistakes as ATI on the Xenos - poor underfill and bump choice that could not withstand the thermal cycles, which should have been caught (NVIDIA and bumpgate is a whole wild story in and of itself though, considering it plagued their desktop and mobile chips). The Cell CPU on there is very reliable though, even though it drew more power and consequently output more heat - it was just the GPU that could not take the heat.
360s mostly red ringed due to faulty GPUs, see previous comments about the PS3 RSX. ATI had a responsibility to choose the right materials, design, and packaging partner to ship to Microsoft for final assembly, and so they must take some responsibility (they also, like NVIDIA, had troubles with their other products at this time, leading to high failure rates of devices like the early MacBook Pros). However, it is unknown if they are fully to blame, as it is unknown who made the call for the final package design.
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Wiis and ps3's weren't crapping out, and the 360 failures weren't due to ati. This meme is dumb. Dumb in the bad meme kinda way.
It is shit post to be fair
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I don't know how much of it was ATI's fault or the fab's, but my understanding is that no one had experience handling that amount of heat.
Agreed, thermals were increasing faster than most manufacturers could handle. Only real exceptions in this time I can think of were IBM (because they had to, PowerPC G5 was such a power hog it pissed off Apple enough for them to switch architectures) and Intel (because they also had to, Pentium 4 was a disaster).
