Do gender roles have a stranglehold on heterosexual relationships, or does social media just make it feel that way?
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
I think the real reason you haven't dated a girl is you've never gotten to know any. You wouldn't think like this otherwise. A majority of couples I know have equal relationships with emotionally vulnerable guys. Your last statement on touching grass fits the bill.
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actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, despite popular narratives.
This might come as a shock to you, but women have been complaining that men pigeonhole themselves into gender roles for decades, and many, if not most of them, would love a guy who is sweeter, not afraid to show their emotions, and is caring and intimate.
Sadly tho, there quite a few are examples of men doing just that and shortly after being broken up with
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
(3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
This is the answer.
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Who's going to be doing this railroading? It's going to be up to you and whoever you decide to have a relationship with to decide what your roles in the relationship will be. When I started getting serious with my partner (now cohabitating over a decade and going strong), we both thought we were cishet little ex-christians. But we were buddies from the start, and that hasn't changed even when we started to question our gender identities. For all I know, it may have been the fact that we were in a stable, loving relationship for the first time in both our lives that made it safe enough to start exploring that aspect of ourselves. I know for us it took (is taking...) a while. I loved them when they thought they were a woman, I love them now as their NB self, and if they discover more about their gender identity I'll love them then. We're still, and will hopefully always be, partners and best buds.
So if you want to try being in a relationship with a girl, find a girl you like, and love her.
A practical addendum to that last point: I am eternally grateful that I am too old to have had to deal with the current landscape of app-based dating, so I am definitely commenting on something out of my experience, but I would advise trying to meet people in real life and make non-romantic friends, rather than "trying to date". Book clubs, Ultimate frisbee leagues, activism groups, etc. I met my partner doing community theater. I think if you want to find someone you can be friends with as well as partners, you have to try being just friends first. And it doesn't always progress beyond that, and sometimes that sucks like a bastard. But I still think it's better than the alternative methods I've seen.
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
wrote last edited by [email protected]It depends a lot on the person involved. People vary a lot. A fair bit of women like the traditional female role but many don't. They do tend to make relationships toxic in the modern day because being viewed in those terms, men have very little value in the modern economic games. Dating a man was more appealing when that meant you could just be a stay at home wife and raise children maybe, also maybe work part time when the kids grew older. Now there is little reason to date a man. It means mostly giving up your entire life for essentially nothing, having a roommate really. It might lower costs a bit but at the cost of taking on tons of risk and exposure and losing the sole claim on your property. The amount of women seeking traditional relationships far outreaches market capacity. Around 10% of Americans are doing well financially, even less than under feudalism in relative terms of social status. Half of Americans are basically in poverty. This means that even traditional relationships are probably not going to be good, as any man who has that kind of money probably has about 9 other options besides yourself as a woman. Men also just don't really have a good place in modern society.
Pseudocapitalism and corporatism is so antihuman in so many ways, from fiat currencies creating high tax burdens making property ownership very unrealistic, to the very low economic efficiency making workers spend most of their time at jobs to get anything done, to the ruling class being full of actual morons who stay in wealth forever because of fiat currency and the stock market always returning more than what anyone else can expect to gain over their life, giving them infinite leverage to start one bad company after another to essentially move money and debt around. They spend tens of billions on propaganda and political advertising to keep power, while your average American is struggling decade after decade and has no political group to represent their interests as a working class person.
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
You absolutely have to get the fuck off the internet to get an idea of what people are actually like. Most of the shit you're seeing isn't even written by humans anymore, and even what is real tends to be the craziest 1% of the population, because they say the crazy things that drive engagement and feed the algorithm.
There's no one way people are, there is more diversity and variety around you than you can possibly imagine. It's not necessarily easy to find somebody you're going to gel with, but I promise you they are all over the place.
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
Don’t confuse stereotypical gender roles with actual roles. People are different and your partner will be stronger than you in something’s and less strong in others. Of course in my case this matched stereotypes so I just said we were traditional, but may have been fooling myself.
Of course after all that time together, now that we no longer are, one of the freedoms I’m enjoying being allowed to cook. She saw it as infringing on her role and insisted on being the one. At the time it was easy to give in, especially since she is a better cook and outstanding at combining meal planning with shopping. However I’m more adventurous a cook and appreciate new and different foods.
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I’d check your algorithm here honestly. On the female side I get men who are ONLY interested in that type of dynamic and don’t know how to wipe their ass—I know it isn’t accurate, but the internet insists I see it sometimes. I’m older and I can confirm most of us just want equal partnerships and independent adults. That said, in your early twenties you will encounter a fair amount of emotionally immature individuals. And people who have been groomed by their families and algorithms into gender roles as well. It isn’t hopeless, but it is getting more difficult.
Honestly, judging by the responses here, it really seems like my social anxiety selectively absorbed negative information and created a self-defeating worldview based on inflammatory social media posts. I really need to take a hard look at what I’m consuming and ask myself if it’s really worth it.
It’s embarrassing to be this wrong, but I’m grateful that I have this community to help me understand that this is a self-imposed social dysfunction rather than a legitimate worldview. It’s just fear.
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
Here's my advice as someone who basically could have written this post when I was your age (I'm now 30)
You can absolutely find a partner who wants to be free from gender expectations and find a relationship like you describe (I did!), but it will be extremely hard to find if you don't put yourself out there and get used to sorting through the majority who are satisfied with gender roles.
The most important things imo are to 1. Keep putting yourself out there when you have the energy. 2. Take breaks if you have to, don't let the experience make you jaded or let that frustration affect how you treat others because that's an easy way to repel someone who would otherwise be a great match. 3. Keep being yourself, don't be afraid to showcase the ways in which you are not traditionally masculine. I literally put a picture of myself in a maid outfit on tinder and I get quite a few compliments. You'll only repel the people you don't want and it'll be like a beacon to attract those who view gender roles in the same way that you do.
To your last point, I would guess a lot of guys probably live quietly unhappy. But plenty have found accepting partners and social circles who are open minded about identity and gender expression.
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Honestly, judging by the responses here, it really seems like my social anxiety selectively absorbed negative information and created a self-defeating worldview based on inflammatory social media posts. I really need to take a hard look at what I’m consuming and ask myself if it’s really worth it.
It’s embarrassing to be this wrong, but I’m grateful that I have this community to help me understand that this is a self-imposed social dysfunction rather than a legitimate worldview. It’s just fear.
At least you've been embarrassingly wrong in a case where consequences are minimal. Also, you've taken in this information to make changes to your life in a mature way.
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At least you've been embarrassingly wrong in a case where consequences are minimal. Also, you've taken in this information to make changes to your life in a mature way.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Also, you've taken in this information to make changes to your life in a mature way.
This is the biggest thing. So many times I've seen someone post the most batshit crazy ideas you can imagine, and walk away thinking "These thousands of people who say otherwise obviously don't know what they're talking about."
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Honestly, judging by the responses here, it really seems like my social anxiety selectively absorbed negative information and created a self-defeating worldview based on inflammatory social media posts. I really need to take a hard look at what I’m consuming and ask myself if it’s really worth it.
It’s embarrassing to be this wrong, but I’m grateful that I have this community to help me understand that this is a self-imposed social dysfunction rather than a legitimate worldview. It’s just fear.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Just by realizing this and making this comment honestly says a lot about you. A lot of good, that is. I'm rooting for you, OP, and I hope you eventually find a healthy relationship.
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Abandon the concept of gender on humans. We're too complex to fit in little boxes that make small minds feel safe.
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
If there's one thing I've learned about people in general, it's that no one is particularly interesting^*^. By that, I mean whenever someone asks "am I the only one who ..." or they think they're the only one who thinks a certain way, they are always, without fail, wrong. You don't want to be the manly man, there are many like you and many women who prefer that.
What we all see on social media isn't reality. Some of it are just memes, some of it's just an echo chamber bouncing off each other, circlejerking their way into thinking all women get the ick if you have emotions. Even Instagram, where this is particularly bad, claims to have 3 billion active monthly users. Even if by some miracle each of these users were different real human beings, that's still shy of half of the population in the best case scenario. In reality, even with Instagram, MOST people in the world don't use it, so what you see there isn't representative of society. Nevermind that the almighty algorithm and the "culture" there attracts a certain type of person.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder ...
There are.
In any case, if you want my opinion, women are people just like you. The same way you came to your conclusions and preferences, they have too. You want an equal relationship and some women will as well. Are there people like you described? Of course, but that doesn't mean anything more than that you two are incompatible. So if you meet one in your efforts to find a relationship, that's ok, just move on.
^*^many people are very interesting, I'm just making a point
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Sadly tho, there quite a few are examples of men doing just that and shortly after being broken up with
Sure, and those are the examples we talk about because it's interesting or frustrating. When a husband opens up about their feelings and their wife accepts that and supports them, it doesn't end up on social media.
What ends up on social media is the man finishing his 20 or 30 year old coil of wire, coming to realize how times flowing and his mortality, and having his wife mock him and then post it online for others to do the same.
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
I the fruity one, find there are more women i talk to that like me more than not. Im not plenty of womens cup of tea im sure, but im not interested in plenty of women too.
Lomg and short of it, yeah we're out here doing fine. Gender is part of a performative identity so wr are goinh to see shows all the time, people, like myself, tend to value other identity expression and so you probally wont see us performing counter gender as much (id rather talk about Linux, Rancher, FOSS, homesteading, economics, etc instead of dwelling a lot of normative gender dynamics that dont explain me and my partner(s) well.
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If there's one thing I've learned about people in general, it's that no one is particularly interesting^*^. By that, I mean whenever someone asks "am I the only one who ..." or they think they're the only one who thinks a certain way, they are always, without fail, wrong. You don't want to be the manly man, there are many like you and many women who prefer that.
What we all see on social media isn't reality. Some of it are just memes, some of it's just an echo chamber bouncing off each other, circlejerking their way into thinking all women get the ick if you have emotions. Even Instagram, where this is particularly bad, claims to have 3 billion active monthly users. Even if by some miracle each of these users were different real human beings, that's still shy of half of the population in the best case scenario. In reality, even with Instagram, MOST people in the world don't use it, so what you see there isn't representative of society. Nevermind that the almighty algorithm and the "culture" there attracts a certain type of person.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder ...
There are.
In any case, if you want my opinion, women are people just like you. The same way you came to your conclusions and preferences, they have too. You want an equal relationship and some women will as well. Are there people like you described? Of course, but that doesn't mean anything more than that you two are incompatible. So if you meet one in your efforts to find a relationship, that's ok, just move on.
^*^many people are very interesting, I'm just making a point
some of it's just an echo chamber bouncing off each other, circlejerking their way into thinking all women ...
And reasonable people make maybe 1-2 posts/memes about their normal relationship while incels will make hundreds. So it looks like the extreme position is way more common than it is. If your personality is centered around wanting a tradwive woman who bows down to you you will be much more vocal about it.
To OP: you are fine, most (younger than 50, and many older as well) people think like you. Its just that right wing propaganda is effective and gaining popularity.
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
This was my experience. I don't think I've ever dated a woman who wanted extremely traditional gender roles. As far as I could tell they mostly wanted equal partnerships like you are describing. And after 12 years of marriage I can tell you my wife and I definitely don't fall into stereotypical roles.
I did date one woman for a year and a half who had some traditional tendencies, but only some. She did not want a breadwinner to support her and did not mind men showing emotion. On the other hand, she definitely subscribed it to the idea that men are dumb pigs who need to be managed by their wives, and she seemed to think it was normal for a marriage to be a constant low-grade "battle of the sexes" — she kept telling me these stories about her parents' conflicts that she thought were cute but I thought were kind of horrifying. I broke up with her for a few reasons but that was definitely one of them. But my point is everyone is an individual and she had some traditional tendencies and some not traditional tendencies. Also I got to know her and had fun dating and then eventually broke up because I didn't think we were a good match. It was fine, and I learned a lot about myself along the way.
Now, if you're on your guard all the time worrying that a woman wants traditional gender roles I bet you can find reasons to support that hypothesis. So don't go looking for it. Instead, go on some dates and just get to know the other person as a person.
Those people who tell you all women want a certain thing are wrong. They might be coming from a particular subculture where it's true, and if you are constantly meeting women who only want traditional gender roles then maybe you need to look at who you're asking out and how you are meeting them. Some of the people who are telling you these stories are knowingly lying because saying "everything sucks and you can pay me for a solution" is a very profitable venture. Other people wish traditional gender roles were the norm and so they're sort of LARPing it online.
Also, remember that going on a couple of dates is not a lifelong commitment. You're getting to know each other. Have fun with it. If you don't like her once you get to know her better, move on. The more you go on dates the easier it gets. Go touch some grass and go touch some ass (consensually).
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Here's my advice as someone who basically could have written this post when I was your age (I'm now 30)
You can absolutely find a partner who wants to be free from gender expectations and find a relationship like you describe (I did!), but it will be extremely hard to find if you don't put yourself out there and get used to sorting through the majority who are satisfied with gender roles.
The most important things imo are to 1. Keep putting yourself out there when you have the energy. 2. Take breaks if you have to, don't let the experience make you jaded or let that frustration affect how you treat others because that's an easy way to repel someone who would otherwise be a great match. 3. Keep being yourself, don't be afraid to showcase the ways in which you are not traditionally masculine. I literally put a picture of myself in a maid outfit on tinder and I get quite a few compliments. You'll only repel the people you don't want and it'll be like a beacon to attract those who view gender roles in the same way that you do.
To your last point, I would guess a lot of guys probably live quietly unhappy. But plenty have found accepting partners and social circles who are open minded about identity and gender expression.
I have often said that for me successful dating is not about getting to date lots of people, but about quickly filtering out the people who don’t work for me and filtering the people who do.
For OP, a lot of pan/bi sexual people already reject strict gender roles, and may be more open to a relationship like you’re seeking.
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I (22M, straight) have never tried dating women due to gender roles. There is nothing that turns me off more than an unequal partnership where I'm pigeonholed into being some stoic protector who never cries, never needs comfort, doesn't like "girly" things, and always leads affection and intimacy.
You know what I like? When a woman is strong, confident, playful, and comforting, but is also down-to-earth and vulnerable. Someone I could take turns caring for and being cared for by, pursuing and being pursued by her. I don't want some stupid power dynamic; I want us to be like best friends, equals with matching vibes who care for and comfort one another. And for us to have lots of fun together: foam sword fights in the living room, baking cakes together despite neither of us knowing what we're doing, having goofy staring contests... whimsical and silly stuff like that.
There is absolutely no room for gender roles in my life because I want us to feel like buddies, not the infallible chivalrous knight and the small vulnerable one. I see the opposite genders as complements that equally embody both strength and vulnerability. Hell, there's not even any room in my life for this serious adult facade everyone seems to put on. Having adult responsibilities doesn't mean I also have to act all serious and sophisticated. No, I'm going to be silly because we have only a finite amount of time on this earth and I'm going to use it to make people laugh and smile.
The Internet has made me disillusioned with the idea of a relationship because gender roles are constantly reinforced. "If you show your emotions to a woman she'll use them against you later" or "If you cry in front of a girl she'll break up with you" or "Guys who are too feminine give me the ick". Often some variation of "If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you're fucked."
That's why, as soon as I realized what my attractions were, I immediately wrote off the possibility of ever fulfilling them because they didn't fit a patriarchal world, and I saw the idea of trying to force myself into that world as torture. I had somehow "fallen out" of gender roles and was attracted to equality instead of hierarchy. I didn't want to be "manly," I wanted to be adorable, playful, caring, and sweet, and I was attracted to those exact qualities in women. Once I developed chronic health conditions and physical limitations, the idea of me being strong and infallible became even more unattainable.
I'm interested in hearing others' experiences in navigating this. I really want to believe that equal straight relationships can be found, but I am surrounded by an information ecosystem that mostly points to their nonexistence, tainted by universal gender expectations.
Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder if most guys with this issue: (1) don't have the self-awareness or courage to post about it, (2) enter relationships where they spend their entire lifetime in hell suppressing their personality, or (3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.
I don't normally recognize specific users online except for a handful of novelty accounts. For all I know, I've only ever talked to 3 people on Lemmy. I don't generally look at usernames, and certainly don't remember them.
So, my dude, I think it says something that I recognize you. I hit about the 1st sentence of your second paragraph and went "is this that guy again?" And sure enough, you were.
I'm not saying this to belittle you in any way, please go on being your sensitive, submissive, gender-nonconforming self. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
But you're on here every couple of weeks posting along these same lines, so I can tell that this is really eating at you at a pretty deep level, and while I don't know what the best solution for you is, it might be professional help, it might be as simple as getting out more, it might be anything in-between, I'm pretty confident that just posting about it on here is probably not going to find you the solutions your seeking.
