[Serious] Jews of Lemmy, what are your family conversations about the war like?
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"Liberal Zionist?" Asking because I dont understand, not attacking anything.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Liberal Zionists prefer more palatable methods for eliminating Palestinians (cultural erasure, apartheid, legalized land seizure) but they don't oppose genocidal escalations when they do occur.
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I don't even know what anyone means when they throw out "liberal" anymore.
My working definition is something like liberals would like everyone to be happy and get along but aren't willing to give up an ounce of their own privilege for that to happen. Also quite ignorant about the actual realities of the social issues they allegedly care about. Can be mixed with many other ideologies because it doesn't have any political substance of its own.
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Zionism wasn’t just taught to the boomer generation in America their entire lives, there was no other concept at all. The reality was that Jews belonged in Israel and no other context was provided. It was true for our Jewish education, too, but the internet and global media has changed things. It’s really hard to get someone to understand that we are not Israel and Jews are not Israel. We are not them and this is something we should be condemning. I had a bit of a time just getting my father to come around to the idea that a ceasefire might be a good idea on account of all the children being killed. That’s how deep this goes even oceans away.
There's a synagogue right in the center of Munich that has been flying the Israeli flag since the October 7 attacks. At the time fair enough but now? I just don't understand it. The Israeli flag is guarded by road spikes, police with MPs as well as private security (rather the synagogue is but that's where the flag is after all) while showing the Palestinian flag can get you arrested. All in the name of combatting antisemitism. It's one big powder keg.
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
Just wanted to say you're getting a skewed picture of people's opinions, as Lemmy isn't popular / well known at all in Israel.
The absolute majority of Jews in Israel are united in wanting the hostages back (currently 58, of which an estimated half are still alive).
A lot want that and to end the war ASAP, not for any real concern for the Palestinians, but for the troops, the economy, and world image.
A lot want to keep going to eradicate Hamas and Hezbollah and Houthis to prevent October 7th from ever happening again.
It's difficult to be pro Palestinian when your friends and family have been slaughtered or held hostage by a (seemingly) unprovoked attack against soldiers and civilians.
The Overton window in Israel doesn't currently allow it, though things might have been changing very recently.
At least here, we don't discuss it much in the same way we don't discuss the mountain near town; it's there, we can't move it, shrug your shoulders, it's part of the landscape.
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
Not a Jew, but my family's Jewish, and it's about as difficult as you'd expect. They get offended by the slightest implication that maybe Israel isn't perfect, assume I support Hamas just because I'm opposed to the IDF killing children - to clarify, I'm opposed to anyone killing children, including Hamas. We don't talk about it that much though.
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lol bruh, nonexistent. I’m not into starving civilians, my family’s not into thinking. One cannot overstate the intergenerational trauma of the holocaust and how it impacts the worldview of the children of survivors.
Seems like an easy moral "don't go to jail card" that collapses under any sort of scrutiny ("so your parents were murdered by their European neighbours so now you can murder Semites without issues?"), perhaps because they themselves have some blood in their hands and would rather bury their heads in the sand. Diabolic behaviour, NGL.
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One cannot overstate the intergenerational trauma of the holocaust and how it impacts the worldview of the children of survivors.
Which is odd considering it was the Germans that committed the holocaust and I'm sure these people you speak of have no issue with Germany now while Palestine never committed genocide and yet they're the villians because the holocaust happened.
Germans killed other Germanics, Northern and Eastern Europeans so these Germanic, Northern and Eastern Europeans moved to the Middle East and killed Semites.
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I don't even know what anyone means when they throw out "liberal" anymore.
Liberal means "covert" and "more palatable" but with the same objectives.
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The easiest way to understand this is this way:
Not all Jews are Zionist ultra-right psychopaths, just like not all Christians are in the Klan, or Aryan Brotherhood, or money worshiping Neocons.
wrote on last edited by [email protected]But don't most Israelis* take part in the killing (either directly or indirectly by being a POG) through their military service? In America, I could believe that while most people are stupid and amoral, there are only a minority of bloodthirsty racists...
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But don't most Israelis* take part in the killing (either directly or indirectly by being a POG) through their military service? In America, I could believe that while most people are stupid and amoral, there are only a minority of bloodthirsty racists...
Hur hur... you owned the libruls, badass.
Fuck that bullshit.
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Hur hur... you owned the libruls, badass.
Fuck that bullshit.
Idk what you meant by this but okay.
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"Liberal Zionist?" Asking because I dont understand, not attacking anything.
They would prefer a two state solutions but believe Arabs and Jews are incompatible together. They are otherwise relatively progressive for their age. They're Bernie supporters. it's what is called Progressive Except Palestine (PEP).
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
My ex is Jewish and my kids are half Jewish. Our discussions have been focused on the fact that what Netanyahu is doing has been making Jews less safe around the world. anti-Semitism is rising because of the fact he is murdering innocent people and children
My kids are less safe because of the Israeli PM and his Zionist government
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
I know my family are raging Zionist so I don't even bring it up.
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But don't most Israelis* take part in the killing (either directly or indirectly by being a POG) through their military service? In America, I could believe that while most people are stupid and amoral, there are only a minority of bloodthirsty racists...
Most Jews don't live in Israel. 18 million Jews, 7 million live in Israel. The way you framed your comment doesn't really make sense. You're talking about Israelis, not Jews as a whole.
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Most Jews don't live in Israel. 18 million Jews, 7 million live in Israel. The way you framed your comment doesn't really make sense. You're talking about Israelis, not Jews as a whole.
Yeah, most Israelis, let me change that up quick.
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I've had multiple family members deployed to active warzones.
Whenever we talked about war, it was never about politics. It was always "X's tour is supposed to finish next month," or "I heard something happened near [town], wasn't X deployed near there?"
I know how everyone talks about it on the internet, but what is it like for you at home?
Apologies in advance for the wall of text. We've had a lot of conversations....
Spouse is half Israeli with lots of family over there. I'm casually Jewish with AuDHD for context so we tend to see things really differently.
I personally don't like that religious countries exist in the first place. So I'm not only against Israel, but also most countries in that part of the world. "Just nuke that entire part of the world" has been mentioned quite a few times. So that's a bit of the conversation.
We tend to focus on the hostages when we talk about the war, and that Israel may be winning the ground war but it's losing the pr war.
We blame Bibi for keeping the war going and not making more surgical spy-type strikes. I used to say that he had one day to get the world behind him and say "look, this is what I've been talking about about!!!" That was all dismissed though when the first cease fire happened. Hamas broke it by sending some small numbers of missiles that got caught by the iron dome and Israel retaliated by sending 100x the number of missiles, killing several people. The news outlets all led with Israel sending the rockets and only briefly mentioned that Hamas struck first.
We blame Hamas for keeping all of their leaders in other countries and all of their weapons and missile silos in civilians backyards. Treating their citizens like shit and saying the only way their family is guaranteed to not go hungry is to join the military....
Just putting this out there .... If you're American and not native American. And native Americans were yelling "from sea to shining sea the native American tribes must be free" and started killing people, started saying how they want their land back and everything ..... How would that be treated?
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Apologies in advance for the wall of text. We've had a lot of conversations....
Spouse is half Israeli with lots of family over there. I'm casually Jewish with AuDHD for context so we tend to see things really differently.
I personally don't like that religious countries exist in the first place. So I'm not only against Israel, but also most countries in that part of the world. "Just nuke that entire part of the world" has been mentioned quite a few times. So that's a bit of the conversation.
We tend to focus on the hostages when we talk about the war, and that Israel may be winning the ground war but it's losing the pr war.
We blame Bibi for keeping the war going and not making more surgical spy-type strikes. I used to say that he had one day to get the world behind him and say "look, this is what I've been talking about about!!!" That was all dismissed though when the first cease fire happened. Hamas broke it by sending some small numbers of missiles that got caught by the iron dome and Israel retaliated by sending 100x the number of missiles, killing several people. The news outlets all led with Israel sending the rockets and only briefly mentioned that Hamas struck first.
We blame Hamas for keeping all of their leaders in other countries and all of their weapons and missile silos in civilians backyards. Treating their citizens like shit and saying the only way their family is guaranteed to not go hungry is to join the military....
Just putting this out there .... If you're American and not native American. And native Americans were yelling "from sea to shining sea the native American tribes must be free" and started killing people, started saying how they want their land back and everything ..... How would that be treated?
wrote on last edited by [email protected]Bibi literally admitted that the Israeli government feeds Hamas in order to have excuses for the war. “Hamas struck first”, should always be followed with “Israel is an invading power committing genocide”. You would've been the kind of German who would always justify the Nazi occupations, because “the partisans struck first”, Then feel righteous because you think Hitler shouldn't be the one leading the Reich. Like, even your example is ignoring the fact that the British committed genocide against Native Americans, then the American state continued it.
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My working definition is something like liberals would like everyone to be happy and get along but aren't willing to give up an ounce of their own privilege for that to happen. Also quite ignorant about the actual realities of the social issues they allegedly care about. Can be mixed with many other ideologies because it doesn't have any political substance of its own.
I agree with your definition. I would also add that liberals support the institution of capital and generally provide cover for it's coercive nature.
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I know my family are raging Zionist so I don't even bring it up.
How did you manage to differ?
