I'm happy to see that European leaders speak out in favour of something thought up by the Arab league.
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I'm happy to see that European leaders speak out in favour of something thought up by the Arab league. Let's hope it's gestures (and actions) like these that help de-escalate the global "West - Islamism" situation.
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I'm happy to see that European leaders speak out in favour of something thought up by the Arab league. Let's hope it's gestures (and actions) like these that help de-escalate the global "West - Islamism" situation.
Is the West vs. Islamism still a big topic in Europe (outside of immigration rhetoric)? On this side of the Atlantic, it was already "on the back burner" somewhat, and then the Russian invasion happened.
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Is the West vs. Islamism still a big topic in Europe (outside of immigration rhetoric)? On this side of the Atlantic, it was already "on the back burner" somewhat, and then the Russian invasion happened.
I think it’s mostly just a right wing talking point. Especially in France, where they try to milk as much islamophobia as they can out of the various terror attacks.
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Is the West vs. Islamism still a big topic in Europe (outside of immigration rhetoric)? On this side of the Atlantic, it was already "on the back burner" somewhat, and then the Russian invasion happened.
I don't think people care outside of immigration rhetoric
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Is the West vs. Islamism still a big topic in Europe (outside of immigration rhetoric)? On this side of the Atlantic, it was already "on the back burner" somewhat, and then the Russian invasion happened.
Immigration rhetoric has been a pretty big part, especially as most "center" politics moved to the right substantially in most EU countries
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I think it’s mostly just a right wing talking point. Especially in France, where they try to milk as much islamophobia as they can out of the various terror attacks.
Same in Germany.
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Is the West vs. Islamism still a big topic in Europe (outside of immigration rhetoric)? On this side of the Atlantic, it was already "on the back burner" somewhat, and then the Russian invasion happened.
a big topic in Europe (outside of immigration rhetoric)
It is a big topic. And it's all about immigration rhetoric.
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a big topic in Europe (outside of immigration rhetoric)
It is a big topic. And it's all about immigration rhetoric.
And it's all about immigration rhetoric.
Yeah because the left ignores the subject, leaving it to (far-)right parties. It's a mistake IMO, Islam is not harmless. My brother in law is a Muslim convert. Last year during Christmas, the whole Santa thing was a huge issue, he wouldn't explain to his kids that some children believe in different things than them.
And it's only gotten worse, a few months ago he announced that he wouldn't come to family gatherings anymore if there was any alcohol or non-halal food. He says that he doesn't want to expose his kids to that. So what does that teach them? That common french beverages, foods and customs are so wrong that they can't see their aunts and cousins anymore. How do they grow up to be well-adjusted members of society with that kind of upbringing?
So we're really worried about where things are headed, and the only answer from the political class is either "there's nothing wrong with Islam you bigot" or "send them back to their country"...
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And it's all about immigration rhetoric.
Yeah because the left ignores the subject, leaving it to (far-)right parties. It's a mistake IMO, Islam is not harmless. My brother in law is a Muslim convert. Last year during Christmas, the whole Santa thing was a huge issue, he wouldn't explain to his kids that some children believe in different things than them.
And it's only gotten worse, a few months ago he announced that he wouldn't come to family gatherings anymore if there was any alcohol or non-halal food. He says that he doesn't want to expose his kids to that. So what does that teach them? That common french beverages, foods and customs are so wrong that they can't see their aunts and cousins anymore. How do they grow up to be well-adjusted members of society with that kind of upbringing?
So we're really worried about where things are headed, and the only answer from the political class is either "there's nothing wrong with Islam you bigot" or "send them back to their country"...
I mean, that just sounds like the problem you would have with anyone radicalised by religion. If you had a hyper Christian or Jew I doubt it would be much different. Perhaps the problem there might be that many more Muslims are ardent believers than Christians, so the atmosphere makes people more inclined to be radical as well. Or maybe it's just a case of correlation does not equal causation.
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And it's all about immigration rhetoric.
Yeah because the left ignores the subject, leaving it to (far-)right parties. It's a mistake IMO, Islam is not harmless. My brother in law is a Muslim convert. Last year during Christmas, the whole Santa thing was a huge issue, he wouldn't explain to his kids that some children believe in different things than them.
And it's only gotten worse, a few months ago he announced that he wouldn't come to family gatherings anymore if there was any alcohol or non-halal food. He says that he doesn't want to expose his kids to that. So what does that teach them? That common french beverages, foods and customs are so wrong that they can't see their aunts and cousins anymore. How do they grow up to be well-adjusted members of society with that kind of upbringing?
So we're really worried about where things are headed, and the only answer from the political class is either "there's nothing wrong with Islam you bigot" or "send them back to their country"...
The French and Islam, tell me a more iconic duo. Radicalism is bad and this in law is obviously pretty radical. However, looking over to France, not even places like Hungary, Poland or Germany are as racist as French people are in every day life. And I picked them because those are particularly racist countries. The evil of French Islamophobia is that it’s sugarcoated with a fake intellectual narrative that tries to justify it instead of being honest about the fact that you just fucking hate them and see them as lesser people that you used to colonize.
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The French and Islam, tell me a more iconic duo. Radicalism is bad and this in law is obviously pretty radical. However, looking over to France, not even places like Hungary, Poland or Germany are as racist as French people are in every day life. And I picked them because those are particularly racist countries. The evil of French Islamophobia is that it’s sugarcoated with a fake intellectual narrative that tries to justify it instead of being honest about the fact that you just fucking hate them and see them as lesser people that you used to colonize.
Sure, the right sees them that way. I don't, and I'm far from alone. I have many Muslim friends and colleagues, wonderful people that I look up to, and with whom I've had very interesting conversations about religion. Up until last year I accommodated my BIL as best as I could, making sure there were appropriate food and drinks options for him, providing him with a room to pray in, and so on. I have absolutely no problem with religious people, as long as respect and understanding goes both ways.
But as you say, there are radical Muslims, and it's not racist to be concerned about this issue and its consequences. A teacher was decapitated for showing fucking pictures to his class, because a student lied to her father who was all too happy to launch a hate campaign against the teacher. Many people cheered at the news on social networks. In my daughter's school, a fucking 6yo was caught lighting a girl's hair on fire because girls are supposed to cover their hair. Is that not concerning?
But sure, you can dismiss it all as islamophobia, and then wonder why more and more people vote for the RN.
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I mean, that just sounds like the problem you would have with anyone radicalised by religion. If you had a hyper Christian or Jew I doubt it would be much different. Perhaps the problem there might be that many more Muslims are ardent believers than Christians, so the atmosphere makes people more inclined to be radical as well. Or maybe it's just a case of correlation does not equal causation.
Sure but we don't have christians or Jews decapitating teachers for showing pictures, or otherwise trying to impose their beliefs and customs on others. I mean, we had quite a few Christians like that, but we mostly fixed the issue when we hung dozens of priests. The left remembers this fondly, while you can't say anything negative about Islam without being called a bigot.
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Sure, the right sees them that way. I don't, and I'm far from alone. I have many Muslim friends and colleagues, wonderful people that I look up to, and with whom I've had very interesting conversations about religion. Up until last year I accommodated my BIL as best as I could, making sure there were appropriate food and drinks options for him, providing him with a room to pray in, and so on. I have absolutely no problem with religious people, as long as respect and understanding goes both ways.
But as you say, there are radical Muslims, and it's not racist to be concerned about this issue and its consequences. A teacher was decapitated for showing fucking pictures to his class, because a student lied to her father who was all too happy to launch a hate campaign against the teacher. Many people cheered at the news on social networks. In my daughter's school, a fucking 6yo was caught lighting a girl's hair on fire because girls are supposed to cover their hair. Is that not concerning?
But sure, you can dismiss it all as islamophobia, and then wonder why more and more people vote for the RN.
There are radical people, fixed that for you. And thanks for proving my point.
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Sure but we don't have christians or Jews decapitating teachers for showing pictures, or otherwise trying to impose their beliefs and customs on others. I mean, we had quite a few Christians like that, but we mostly fixed the issue when we hung dozens of priests. The left remembers this fondly, while you can't say anything negative about Islam without being called a bigot.
I‘m not sure that’s covered in French history books but you butchered the living shit out of somewhere between 400,000 and 5.6 million Algerians and that’s just one example. There are millions, if not tens of millions of victims of French colonialism. You’ll say it’s a long time ago but there are enough people alive in France who still remember and miss having colonies. You did that in the name of "civilizing savages". The Belgium, British and Germans did the same under the guise of "civilizing" them and teaching them Christianity. You’re just spreading right wing narratives here.
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There are radical people, fixed that for you. And thanks for proving my point.
No, I'm saying that if only the Nazis talk about an issue, people who are concerned about this issue will listen to them, and then vote for them. Which is obviously bad, so I'd very much like the left to pull their head from the sand and face the problems caused by Islam, like they faced the problems caused by Christianity, so that we come up with a sensible and compassionate alternative to the terrible things the RN proposes.
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I‘m not sure that’s covered in French history books but you butchered the living shit out of somewhere between 400,000 and 5.6 million Algerians and that’s just one example. There are millions, if not tens of millions of victims of French colonialism. You’ll say it’s a long time ago but there are enough people alive in France who still remember and miss having colonies. You did that in the name of "civilizing savages". The Belgium, British and Germans did the same under the guise of "civilizing" them and teaching them Christianity. You’re just spreading right wing narratives here.
Yes I did learn about colonialism in school. I don't get your point though. I should personally be ashamed, and tolerate people teaching their little kids to light girls' hair on fire, because of colonialism? How is that different from demanding every Muslim to apologize for terrorist attacks?
My children are half-cambodian, just this week my 7yo was told to go back to her country by some asshole kid at her school. The normalisation of the far-right and the prospect of a RN presidency is a huge concern for me, as is the fact that the left calls me a racist when I mention the very real Islam-related issues I personally encountered.
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Yes I did learn about colonialism in school. I don't get your point though. I should personally be ashamed, and tolerate people teaching their little kids to light girls' hair on fire, because of colonialism? How is that different from demanding every Muslim to apologize for terrorist attacks?
My children are half-cambodian, just this week my 7yo was told to go back to her country by some asshole kid at her school. The normalisation of the far-right and the prospect of a RN presidency is a huge concern for me, as is the fact that the left calls me a racist when I mention the very real Islam-related issues I personally encountered.
I think it's more about having the capacity to understand nuance and context from both sides. The legacy of European colonialism isn't your personal responsibility, but the ease with which many Europeansl dismiss ANY responsibility for it while still enjoying the wealth and privileges it created for them AND actively supporting the heirarchies left in its wake is dangerously tone-deaf. I agree with your perspective on having conversations that don't dehumanize Muslims while still pressuring the community to hold itself accountable, otherwise state action will do it for them. But tbh ignoring history and crying "it wasn't me, I shouldn't feel bad" is short-sighted and how y'all got here in the first place.
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I‘m not sure that’s covered in French history books but you butchered the living shit out of somewhere between 400,000 and 5.6 million Algerians and that’s just one example. There are millions, if not tens of millions of victims of French colonialism. You’ll say it’s a long time ago but there are enough people alive in France who still remember and miss having colonies. You did that in the name of "civilizing savages". The Belgium, British and Germans did the same under the guise of "civilizing" them and teaching them Christianity. You’re just spreading right wing narratives here.
Western education generally does a piss poor job covering colonialism. Most British folk exit their public education system having a cursory understanding of it which really says something.
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I think it's more about having the capacity to understand nuance and context from both sides. The legacy of European colonialism isn't your personal responsibility, but the ease with which many Europeansl dismiss ANY responsibility for it while still enjoying the wealth and privileges it created for them AND actively supporting the heirarchies left in its wake is dangerously tone-deaf. I agree with your perspective on having conversations that don't dehumanize Muslims while still pressuring the community to hold itself accountable, otherwise state action will do it for them. But tbh ignoring history and crying "it wasn't me, I shouldn't feel bad" is short-sighted and how y'all got here in the first place.
But tbh ignoring history and crying "it wasn't me, I shouldn't feel bad" is short-sighted and how y'all got here in the first place.
That's not what I'm saying. Sure there are a lot of people like that in France and in Europe. Still, France gives billions of euros each year to developing countries, and welcomes quite a few refugees. This very post is about France and others fighting for the rights of Palestinians. As it should.
But you know what's equally short-sighted? Saying that Islam is totally harmless, and that white people are the cause of all problems. And honestly, that's the vibe I'm getting from these answers.
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But tbh ignoring history and crying "it wasn't me, I shouldn't feel bad" is short-sighted and how y'all got here in the first place.
That's not what I'm saying. Sure there are a lot of people like that in France and in Europe. Still, France gives billions of euros each year to developing countries, and welcomes quite a few refugees. This very post is about France and others fighting for the rights of Palestinians. As it should.
But you know what's equally short-sighted? Saying that Islam is totally harmless, and that white people are the cause of all problems. And honestly, that's the vibe I'm getting from these answers.
Your last post did ask if you should feel personally ashamed for the history of French colonialism so I was responding to that in particular. Maybe you meant it rhetorically but I didn't perceive it that way so I figured I'd share my thoughts.
I do disagree with your final point, but I can clearly see I have a much different perspective on the West than you, so I won't dive into that. Ill simply mention that whatever vibe you think you're getting from these comments may be a good catalyst for you to critically think about how these narratives make you feel and why that is so, since it seems that you're frustrated over some perceived threat to your belief system. If anyone is arguing in absolutes than I wouldn't invest much energy into their arguments, but from where I'm looking I don't see much of that; just people engaging in good-faith discourse about very complex subjects.
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